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 25 1898 Feed Issue (Read 10629 times)
Parashooter
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #15 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 4:53am
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butlersrangers wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 1:09am:
. . . (As 'parashooter' has illustrated, in a previous thread on the subject, the Krag magazine surfaces direct the 'dumped-in' rimmed cartridges to sort themselves out and feed in 'echelon'). . .


I would add that the described effect occurs only with cartridges of regulation length. Shorter cartridges are not automatically aligned by magazine geometry.

  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #16 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 6:31am
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FWIW - I've never encountered a 'rim jam' with a U.S. Krag, even with reloaded cartridges that are shorter than U.S. military ammo length.

I have had bullet tips hang-up on the barrel breech-face of some Krags, with certain 'spitzer' bullet profiles.

I have had rim-jams with Lee-Enfield rifles, in .303 caliber.
  
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RichWIS
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #17 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 1:21pm
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What brass are you using, the original round had a beveled rim that would allow the round above it in the magazine to slide past.  A flat rim can get caught and the round pushed forward before the round being stripped from the magazine goes over it.  Experimented with using 303 Brit as a back-up for brass and this sometimes would happen.
  
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FredC
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #18 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 2:29pm
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I found the thread with Parashooter's diagram:  (You need to Login to view media files and links)
To find it I went to yahoo and typed this into the search line:
  krag collectors association rim lock echelon
Google is actually more powerful but yahoo allows opens another window for you to look at, close it if it is wrong and type another search phrase.
You have eliminated something wonky happening with the ejector, correct?
In my short experiment trying to get a rim lock the speed which the loading gate and which way the gun was aimed while closing the gate made a difference. Maybe some experimenting is in order to find the solution.

My apologies I was at the end of page one and did not realize Parashooter had copied his diagram in to this thread when I posted yesterday. Instead of deleting this post I will leave it as some other useful info is in the other thread.
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2019 at 1:53pm by FredC »  
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Parashooter
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #19 - Jun 6th, 2019 at 3:19pm
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FredC wrote on Jun 6th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
. . . In my short experiment trying to get a rim lock the speed which the loading gate and which way the gun was aimed while closing the gate made a difference. . .

If we think about Krag magazine geometry, it's apparent that short cartridges can align by gravity if the rifle is oriented significantly off horizontal during loading.
  
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GunGrunt
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #20 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:04pm
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Believe me. I have thoroughly cleaned every part of this rifle  with an emphasis on the magazine area.  I installed a new follower spring that solved the problem of the last couple of rounds not being pushed up far enough to be caught by the bolt.  I polished all the surfaces of the magazine well to include the backside of the side plate.  The side plate is perfectly fitted to the side of the receiver.

The problem remains that if the rim of the cartridge in the ready position is behind the rim of the next round the rifle will jam solid every time. Opening a closing the loading gate does not fix the problem.

This is a beautiful rifle with most of the finish intact and almost no dings in the stock.  Perfect bore with no apparent wear.  It groups extremely well at 200yds.  I bought this rifle to go along with my M1917 and M1903A3 for use in CMP Vintage Rifle competition.  Looks like I will have to sell it.  Jams are not an option.
  
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Parashooter
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Kragmudgeon

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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #21 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 6:26pm
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If your loaded cartridges are less than 3.08" long, magazine geometry will not compel appropriate alignment and rim jams are possible. If you have rim jams with regulation-length cartridges, something else is at play and it will probably require hands-on diagnosis by someone experienced with the US Krag feed mechanism to identify and correct the problem.

If using short cartridges, rim jams may be avoided by elevating the muzzle during loading, far enough to allow gravity to move the cartridges back against the rear wall of the magazine with sufficient energy to align the rims. If the short cartridges are of uniform length, the same effect may occur if the muzzle is depressed enough to allow the rounds to slide forward against the front magazine wall.
  
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Whig
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #22 - Jun 7th, 2019 at 7:37pm
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Does it jam with factory ammo?
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #23 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 2:43am
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'GunGrunt' - I do not know why your model 1898 Krag is having difficulty feeding cartridges.

Maybe it is because it is 'California Compliant'?

(It is very difficult and not very gratifying to try and solve a problem over the internet).

From my own experience, feed problems are unusual in U.S. Krags.

Rim-Jams are very unusual in the U.S. Krag.

(BTW - You have not answered the inquiry about whether you have 'beveled' case rims. More information about your ammo might be helpful).

FWIW - Model 1892 and 1896 Krag parts, (like the side-plate, magazine-gate, and follower-arm assembly), may fit on a model 1898 Krag. They may appear "to fit", but, the parts are different and may cause function problems.

Photos: 1. Top view of 1896 & 1899 actions. 2. Front view of 1896 & 1898 side-plates (right plate is '98 - front 'tendon' is thicker).
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:23am by butlersrangers »  
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psteinmayer
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #24 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 2:05pm
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GunGrunt wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:04pm:
I bought this rifle to go along with my M1917 and M1903A3 for use in CMP Vintage Rifle competition.  Looks like I will have to sell it.  Jams are not an option.


GunGrunt, please don't give up the ship just yet...  The answer may be just under our fingertips, and I suspect the "Ah Hah" moment is going to appear when no one is looking!

BTW, Para and Butlers advice is right on the money.  Check your OAL, make sure your cartridge rims have the proper bevel... and roll the rifle slightly left and barrel up when loading. 

If you're planning on shooting at Perry, I'll be there on Thursday afternoon (the day before the Roosevelt Match) and I'd be happy to meet up with you and take a look at it.
  
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GunGrunt
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #25 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 6:03pm
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First, many thanks for all of the replies.

Brass is new Hornady with no bevel on leading edge.  Here is photo of inside of side plate.



Here is my interim solution, a custom made Krag "stripper" clip.  I fill the clip with the rims aigned so that each succeeding cartridge rim is in front of the preceding cartridge.  So far no problems at all quickly loading the next five rounds.

  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #26 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 6:22pm
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Bevel is on 'rear' of Krag rim.

U.S. made .30-40 brass, usually, retains this feature.

Neat 'charger' you made. Kind of looks like Italian Vetterli 'charger'.

I can't 'ID' your side-plate from inside. I have to see front edge.

If you have access to another model 1898 Krag, (that is free of feed problems), switch out parts and test function.

FWIW - I'm suspicious of your side-plate.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #27 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 7:39pm
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FWIW - I just tried the 'feed' on two model 1898 Krags with some W-W factory rounds, (180 grain - RNSP). These rifles have been trouble free, in the past.

The OAL of the factory rounds was approximately 3.062".

My intention was to purposely cause 'Rim-Jams'. It was difficult!

Actually, I could only get the first round to remain in the 'Jammed' position. I could only do this with one of the Krags.

The other potentially interfering 'Rims' corrected themselves, when the magazine-gate was even gently closed.

With the first cartridge in the 'Rim Jam' position, even that could be corrected by a sharp slap on the bolt-handle.

The bevel on the rear of the case rim apparently serves its purpose!

IMHO - The brass rub marks and finish wear, on the inside of the side-plate, offer valuable clues on how a Krag is feeding cartridges.
  
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GunGrunt
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #28 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 7:55pm
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SOLVED!!  I think . . .

Thanks to the photo from butlersrangers.  I noticed the rear edge of the rim of the original brass had a very pronounced bevel.  The Hornady brass is almost squared off.  I chucked up five of my dummy rounds in my lathe and filed a bevel that looks like the original ammo.  Voila!!  All loaded as smooth as butter, even when I purposely loaded a cartridge with its rim behind the next cartridge.

THANKS again for eveeryone's help.  Now off to the range to zero it at 200yds.

BTW - I also machined a new front sight similar to the "Marine Corps" from sight authorized on the 03/03A3 Springfields.  That is, a VERY thin based that still fits the slot in sight base, but with a much wider top portion of the blade.  MUCH easier to see.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: 1898 Feed Issue
Reply #29 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 10:48pm
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Awesome!  Glad you've got that all sorted out.  Hopefully, we'll see you at the Roosevelt Match!

Just goes to show... although all Krags are made to be the same (i.e. all 98s, etc), not all are.  Some feed spitzers fine while some don't.  Some (like yours) don't dig the squared off rims... while others have no problems.  And don't get me started on how some Krags fire this round or that round more accurately than others!  Krags, like the shooters that wield them are practically human in nature, and just need a little love to be happy!
  
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