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 25 Original 1898 carbine or not? (Read 8970 times)
MikeyC
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Original 1898 carbine or not?
Aug 18th, 2019 at 7:59pm
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Hello, recently my aunt gave me a rifle that was my uncles fathers. Its an 1898 serial number 387xxx. Was given some good info from some people on the national gun forum and they steered me in this direction. originally I was just looking for some quick info on value to sell it but after reading a lot about it I am going to keep it. One guy said "I agree that you may have an 1898 carbine and it certainly looks cosmetically right, although the overall length appears to be out by about an inch, which could point to a Bannerman or later "conversion" Just curious if anyone has any more info.
  
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Whig
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #1 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 9:14pm
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Hello and welcome to the KCA forum. You are very fortunate to have inherited a wonderful family treasure like a Krag. Most of us have bought the Krags we have and don't have the personal family history like you have with yours. No matter what the value may be, your family historical value is priceless!

Briefly, the 1898 Krag carbines were made in a much lower serial number range than yours is. Authentic M1898 carbines were mostly in the 115,000-135,000 range. There are a few that are outside this range but not by too much. Dating exactly when a Krag rifle or carbine was made is a science unto itself. The barrel of a true carbine is exactly 22 inches measured from the front of the closed bolt to the end of the muzzle. We usually measure this by closing the bolt and dropping a cleaning rod down the barrel until it hits the front of the bolt and measuring the cleaning rod at the muzzle end.

You are correct that many rifle barrels, which are 30 inches, were cut down to resemble carbines. Krag rifles were very cheap in the 1920s and 1930s and people bought them and cut them down for hunting purposes. Bannerman and others were known to do this frequently.

Sometimes, a rifle barrel was removed and a carbine barrel was installed. This could preserve the front sight instead of replacing the front sight with an aftermarket sight.

Your rear sight looks like an authentic M1896 carbine sight which is marked with a "c" above the "19" (for 1900 yards) as well as on the right side of the sight which might be covered by the hand guard. We would need more pictures of the sight to confirm if it is real. These sights, by themselves, are worth north of $500. They are hard to find. If your rifle has been in the family for decades, it is probably authentic.

Please post more pictures of the front sight, rear sight, receiver with all markings and bolt. Can you see what condition the bore is in? Also, is there a set of cleaning rods in the butt of the stock?

Congrats again!
  
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Whig
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #2 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 9:18pm
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Also, we need a picture of the front of the stock to see if the stock is a cut down rifle stock or an authentic carbine stock that was put on your Krag.

Many Krags, whether they are original military Krags or cut down rifles, are great shooting firearms. If you aren't comfortable to do so yourself, have a gunsmith examine your Krag to see if it looks in good condition to fire. Get some 30-40 Krag ammunition and try it out. You'll love shooting it!

Keep us informed and we'll wait for the pictures.

This shows the front of a carbine stock.
  
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MikeyC
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #3 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 9:25pm
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Thank you for the reply. I will post more pictures of the sights soon. As far as the cleaning rods in the butt, I don't believe this has it. I did read online about that and was somewhat confused that this one doesn't have it. These are the only other pics I have available at this time.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #4 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 9:34pm
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Sorry, but that serial number is WAY out of whack to be an original 1898 carbine. Barring the extremely unlikely case where it was an "official" repair, at some unknown point in time, the gun was apparently assembled outside the control of SA.

The stock appears to be a correct carbine stock, albeit of M1899 (32") form, and the rear sight appears to be a genuine M1896C - all good points. Original 30" M1898C stocks are very scarce, if not rare. The rear sight is, as stated, quite valuable on its' own.

As it sits, it would have to be evaluated as an M1899 carbine. It is in very nice shape, and if the bore is good should be a really fun shooter.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #5 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 10:12pm
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Interesting butt-plate, it has no butt-trap door.

Did someone re-shape an early model 1892 or cadet butt-plate?
  
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Whig
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #6 - Aug 18th, 2019 at 10:16pm
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Heck, the stock would have to have been altered or cut to accommodate that butt plate.

Mikey- can you remove the butt plate and take a picture of what the stock looks like underneath?

The mystery deepens...
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #7 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 12:25am
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Pic of buttplate was not up when I posted.

That looks to be the "intermediate" plate (heavy weight with curved toe) between the original flat thin plate of the first 1892s, and the common final type seen on almost all Krags today. I have one on my late 1892 (or Joe Farmer's "magazine rifle") s/n 20196.

I'll bet the inletting beneath the plate is "normal". If it isn't, we have a bit of a puzzle.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #8 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 1:54am
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Thanks Dick for identifying the Butt-Plate. That is an unusual one.

IMHO - This makes it very likely MikeyC's heirloom Krag is a non-arsenal 'parts gun' that contains some very desirable parts!

Very likely it was assembled by Stokes Kirk or Bannerman's.

  
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #9 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 3:50am
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Do you have a close up pic of the left side of the receiver?  Maybe 1898 is really 1899 under good light.
  

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psteinmayer
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #10 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 11:36am
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You read my mind Culp! 

I agree with Chuck - Bannerman or Stoke's Kirk... OR, somewhere along the line, some parts were replaced by someone outside of SA!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #11 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 11:56am
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The OP's magazine-gate may be from a model 1896 action.

(BTW - Whig's picture has the rear-sight on backwards).
  
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Culpeper
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #12 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 2:41pm
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butlersrangers wrote on Aug 19th, 2019 at 11:56am:
...(BTW - Whig's picture has the rear-sight on backwards).



Looks okay to me.  Big end to the front, right?
  

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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #13 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 2:52pm
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I don't know.  Something about the band doesn't sit well with me.  It looks like the band is not sliding to the rear all the way over the step on the end of the spring.  I have a carbine stock like that where some chucklehead cut off the stock in the middle of the band and then went "Oh Crapski!" and glued the piece back on.  This sets the spring back just enough to not allow the spring to retain the band.  The difference is the width of a saw blade or just a bit shy of it.

Maybe its just me and my old eyes.



.
  

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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Original 1898 carbine or not?
Reply #14 - Aug 19th, 2019 at 4:44pm
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I see it too, but sometimes it's hard to tell where the fault lies, as springs get jammed in their slot and won't rise. I think that a little TLC would fix that issue pretty quickly.
  
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