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 25 Jungle Carbine Bayonet (Read 7719 times)
butlersrangers
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #30 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 8:18pm
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I looked through my L-E literature, but, failed to find anything on serial number 'blocks' for No. 5 Mk1 rifles.

However, Ian Skennerton, "The British Service Lee", page 179, states:

"Some changes which were introduced for the No. 5 rifle were the numbering of the fore-end to the rifle, approved on 14th November (1945), and the numbering of the magazine as well, approved on 3rd June 1946. It was also instructed that No. 4 rifles have their magazines numbered to the rifle.
Subsequently, all new production rifles from this date had the serial number engraved on the bottom of the magazine".

Whig's family heirloom, having been made in November, 1945, would not have had the serial number put on the magazine and probably not the stock forearm, (during manufacture).

Skennerton reports, (page 176-177), that an experimental metal 'nosecap' was fitted to the forearm tip, as early as July 1944, but, proved too difficult to manufacture.
A simpler version was devised and appeared on some 1945 production, but, was eventually discarded. Forearm tips were merely rounded off and the grain end sealed.

Skennerton does not give a date, that I can find, when the metal forearm cap again became a feature of No. 5 rifle production. 
  
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Whig
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #31 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 8:25pm
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There is a serial number that matches the receiver on the top of the barrel under the rear of the hand guard. But, no, there is not anything stamped into the stock. That would correlate with your research.

I'll still have to search for the other mag this carbine was purchased with. But, the one in the carbine has that ugly green paint on the bottom half like the bayonet. But, the carbine has no green paint.

Thanks.
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #32 - Oct 11th, 2019 at 9:19pm
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Here's 2 pages taken from the ".303 Rifle, No.5 Mk I, Parts Identification & Lists, No. 5 Series Notes, Exploded Parts Drawings, Descriptions, Accessories & Fittings" by Ian Skennerton.

As far as the fore end metal cap...all I can extrapolate from Alan M. Petrillo's "The Number 5 Jungle Carbine" is that they started manufacturing them with the metal cap in late 1945 or early 1946?
  
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Littlejohn
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #33 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 2:15am
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Local Boy, those No.5s you showed in post #16 look really good.
What's the story on the No.4 MK1 and the Pattern 14?
P14 is another one on my want list.
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #34 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 8:02am
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Thanks Littlejohn!

I purchased the No. 4 from a local gun shop a number of years ago.  It's ROF Maltby made in 1941.  It has a beech wood stock and an interesting button cocking piece as opposed to the usual flat rectangular ones.

BTW: I stopped by the same gun shop today...still nicely appointed but it's easy to tell their dying a slow death.  Sad to say that the big box stores are doing them in. Embarrassed

The Eddystone Pattern 14 I acquired from a local private sale.   It's in very good shape and all numbers matching!  Unfortunately the forend of the original stock was removed.  Bummer, because the remaining stock was in excellent condition.  Finding a replacement fat boy stock was no easy task...especially in halfway descent shape.  Another nice thing was that the complete side volley sight was still fully intact located on the left center of the rifle!

Whig, I've also included some photos of a no1 mkIII magazine that I modified (before I knew better) to fit Jungle Carbines.  Using my No4/5 magazine as an example...I removed about half the guide rib from the no1 MkIII mag.  It actually fits and cycles bullets well after tuning the tabs.

Sometimes you have to fiddle with the tabs, at the top of the magazine (front and back), to get them to cycle bullets properly.

As you probably know...the magazine was supposed to stay on the rifle and the magazines were to be loaded with a charger or individually one-at-a-time.
« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2019 at 9:34am by Local Boy »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #35 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 6:13pm
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I didn't expect this amount of interest and experience with Lee-Enfield rifles and other British items on the KCA Forum.

FWIW - Some rambling thoughts on early Lee 'small-bore' magazine arms.

IMHO - The 'genius idea' of James Paris Lee was the 'detachable (sheet metal) box magazine'. The evolution and efficient exploitation of this feature, probably was not realized, until applied to semi-automatic and automatic arms.

It seems, J.P. Lee and the companies in North America, that produced his 'turn-bolt' rifles, saw the 'detachable magazine' best utilized as a means of disciplined 'Fire Control'.

In its military configuration, the Remington-Lee "small-bore magazine rifle", (a.k.a. model 1899), came with four detachable magazines. This Lee rifle design also included a long 'side spring' to serve as a loading aid or platform.

This spring facilitates single loading by preventing a loosely loaded cartridge from dropping through the magazine opening, when the magazine is absent.

When a magazine is inserted, this spring is pushed aside.

The scheme was for troops to normally fire their Remington-Lee rifles as single shot rifles. When rapid fire was needed, the command was given to load a five round magazine.

With four loaded 5-shot magazines available, twenty one rounds of ammo, per man, could quickly be discharged by a unit! (Or ... so was the theory)!

It appears to me, gun designers and military thinkers were really blundering and feeling their way into this "Magazine Thingy".
« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2019 at 3:08am by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #36 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 6:58pm
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Enter "Mr. Trouble" and things get re-thought!

The British were to have a learning experience during the Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902).

They would face a highly mobile enemy with lots of good rifle shots.

The Boer forces were armed primarily with a variation of the model 1893 Spanish Mauser, Ludwig Loewe and DWM made model 1895 Mausers, chambered for the 7X57mm Mauser cartridge, carried in 5-round 'stripper clips'.
« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2019 at 3:25am by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Jungle Carbine Bayonet
Reply #37 - Oct 12th, 2019 at 8:10pm
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In the late 1880's, when looking for a small-bore, smokeless magazine rifle, the British saw virtue in the Remington-Lee (Black Powder) bolt action design and its detachable magazine.

Having a military that knew how to fight using Bullet, Bayonet, and Butt, the British revamped the Lee's wimpy stock into a rather robust "two piece" design with provision to withstand recoiling parts.

The rear bolt lock-up, 'cock-on-closing' striker design, trigger linkage/guard design, and detachable (8 cartridge) 'single stack' magazine were pure to Lee design.

Early Lee-Metford rifles and carbines had their original magazine 'chain-linked' to a loop on the trigger-guard plate. This was so the empty magazine could be released and not lost, while inserting a  spare 'loaded' magazine.

The action had a magazine cut-off to allow operation of the rifle as a single-shot, with the magazine contents held in reserve.

The magazine was soon increased to 10 rounds, 'double stacked'. The idea of changing magazines was dropped. (Likely due to expense and poor interchangeability of magazines).

The British fired their Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield rifles (10 round) and carbines (5 round) as single-shots. The magazine 'cut-off' was utilized to hold the contents in reserve. Replenishing a 10 round magazine was a slow process.

By 1901, the virtue of 'charger-loading' was clear to the British Army and experimental 'Charger-Loading' short rifles were being produced for trial. This was the genesis of the Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark-I.

By 1907 the design was much improved.

But, within six years, the .303" Short M.L-E Mark-III rifle was slated for replacement by the .276", Mauser inspired, Pattern 1913.
(We all know how that would turn out).

Shorter & handier, charger-Loading, better sights, a quick bolt-action with a great toleration for mud and abuse, showed the British Lee to be a better battle rifle than expected!

(Attached photos showing SMLE Mk-I with early charger-guide).

« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2019 at 6:07am by butlersrangers »  
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