Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
 10 Need Help Figuring this Krag Out (Read 2495 times)
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:52pm
Print Post  
So, the Krag search has brought forth another treasure with lots of questions.

I bought this obvious cut down Krag rifle for the beautiful stock it is wearing. It appears to be a nice, complete M1898 carbine stock with the sling ring, early short carbine stock with the long nose as well as a clearly legible 1898 cartouche. I want to switch this onto one of my M1898 carbine receivers and have a correct early M1898 carbine.

This cut down has many interesting features that I discovered when I got it and started to examine it carefully. It has a replacement barrel without a proof mark and some light teeth marks from a vise. It seems to be installed properly otherwise. It is a 22 inch barrel with an added M1903 front sight.

There is no hand guard protecting the rear sight. The rear sight is incorrect in that it has an M1898 carbine base with an M1902 slide with a peep. The slide has the slightly uncommon feature of having the lines crossing the slide but not going through the numbers. Joe Farmer says this is a very late M1902 variation that is uncommon.

The serial number on this receiver is my highest number of 482709.

I noticed a star stamped into the rear of the bolt body. I have never seen this before. I know that some National Match rifles are stamped with a star to indicate NM accuracy for that rifle.

And, most interesting is the presence of an NRA stamping on the stock in front of the trigger guard and on the top of the butt plate.

I know that many people have discussed that DCM altered carbines provided to the NRA are only able to be verified if the original serial numbered receipt is available for provenance and proof.

What do you make of these features? I know anyone can stamp a rifle with anything they want but the NRA often did stamp some of their firearms in the past.

I'm stumped. Still a great stock but I'm not sure if I should change this from "as found" and mess up a neat treasure. I guess Bannerman could have done this.

Thanks for the help.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:53pm
Print Post  
more pics...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 9:55pm
Print Post  
Your front-sight is not a 1903 Springfield sight. (Looks cheap commercial).

(FWIW - I also have a Krag bolt with the 'star' stamp, shown below).

You have a rare rear-sight base (1898 carbine). Your leaf (made for the early 1903 Springfield) is relatively common in the loose state.

I don't believe the 1898 base and 1903 leaf would have been put together by a U.S. Armory or Depot.

There is no Krag hand-guard that works with your stock and rear-sight combination.

If you have doubts and believe this to be a rare Krag, you might want to have a conversation with Joe Farmer.

But, I suspect, your Krag is a combination of parts put together by a surplus dealer, like Stokes Kirk and others.

Could your barrel be a re-used 1903 Springfield barrel? It appears smaller in diameter than the stock's barrel-channel.

Another possibility is that it is a Krag barrel that has been reduced in diameter. The diameter of the barrel appears greater in the area below the front-sight.

The N.R.A. stamps are interesting. (BTW - The NRA did not buy or sell Krags). The DCM civilian sales once required NRA membership.

It would be interesting to compare your N.R.A. stamps with those that appear on 1903 Springfield rifles (front tang of trigger-guard) that the DCM sold to NRA members in the pre-WW1 era. It appears your butt-plate has been stamped more than once.

The stamps appear on your stock and butt-plate and may not be related to the present barreled/action that resides in your stock.
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2019 at 5:09am by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 1:30am
Print Post  
Thanks for pointing out some details. I haven't looked at many sporterized Krags and am not good at recognizing the different front sights used. There are no Springfield Armory markings on the barrel that would signify a M1903 barrel. I am going to try to keep piecing the detailed info together and see what makes the most sense. I thought I'd post pictures and descriptions here as well as try to get a note off to Joe.

I need to research the NRA info about Krags. I know nothing about this small bit of Krag-ology. I thought DCM cut down rifles and used left over Krag carbine parts to make "carbines" for NRA members who requested them.

I've got a selection of hand guards but, as you have pointed out, none of the original hand guards work with what I have. Unless this is something I shouldn't play with, I'll be switching parts around. I like working with these rare sights just like you do!

When I get a chance, I'll do some measurements of the barrel.

Thanks butlers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #4 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 4:50am
Print Post  
'Whig' - I took the liberty of cropping and marking (with arrows) some of the anomalies I noticed on your Krag's photos: (evidence of reduced diameter barrel and faint letters from previous stamping).

I also attached a photo of the N.R.A. stamp found on some civilian owned pre-WW1 1903 Springfield rifles.

The breech end of your barrel and the quality of the extractor-cut might be the best clue that it started out as a Krag barrel.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #5 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 5:02am
Print Post  
Some 1931 DCM price list pages.

Also, a Benicia Arsenal receipt for the 1929 sale of a Krag rifle (and $2.00 alteration to carbine length and 1903 front-sight).

It is my understanding that carbine stocks were used until they ran out and then rifle stocks were altered.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #6 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 8:49am
Print Post  
Any thoughts on what the star marking on the bolt body means? I haven't seen it before and yours makes two of them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #7 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 9:08am
Print Post  
On closer examination of the barrel, there are actually some remains of markings behind the front sight and underneath the rear sight. Pictures show this. The extractor looks professional done by S.A.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #8 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 6:01pm
Print Post  
Whig - Interesting pictures, you posted, showing the remains of barrel markings.

IMHO - Your barrel did not start out as a Krag barrel.

It likely was a 1903 Springfield, 1917 U.S. Rifle, or machine-gun barrel, that got turned-down, threaded, re-chambered, and 'slotted' for the Krag action.

The machine marks, from being 'turned down' on a lathe, are obvious.

I am sure the NRA stamp is bogus. Likely, the first attempt on the butt-plate looked so fake, that it was polished off and re-stamped.

FWIW - The DCM was established in 1903 and placed under the U.S. Army in 1916.
The N.R.A. stamp, found on some 1903 Springfield rifles, appears to date from March, 1915 to 1917, per author Bruce N. Canfield.

The Benicia DCM/NRA "carbines" appear to date from the 1925 to 1930 fiscal years. Mallory reported 11,245 rifles converted in the Benicia records he found.

I am unaware of any special markings placed on DCM sold rifles and carbines.

I suspect some enterprising individual (aka - FAKER) marked your "carbine", NRA, in an effort to pass it off as a (Benicia) DCM cut-down Krag.

BTW - Your rear-sight screws look good. Are the rear-sight holes the correct Krag thread?
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2019 at 7:14pm by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #9 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 7:23pm
Print Post  
I would feel better about the NRA stamping if it had periods after each letter. The fact that it was restamped doesn't bother me much because even rare coins sometimes had duplicate or double stampings. It just means that it was stamped twice- it's not a guarantee that it is fake. But, I know that anyone can stamp letters on anything.

The barrel is an interesting situation. Don't know where it came from.

Thanks for the comments. I'm still searching and appreciate your help. The rear sight is interesting to add to my sight collection.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #10 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 8:16pm
Print Post  
Reviewing Brophy's "The Krag Rifle", it was his belief that the Benicia made "DCM Carbines" were only equipped with actual carbine stocks and 1901 sights.

He regretted the lack of any special marking on the DCM/NRA arms.

IIRC - I have read from some reliable source, (that I cannot find now), that Benicia ran out of carbine stocks and made use of shortened & 'plugged' rifle stocks.

It would be nice to see some documented "DCM/NRA carbines" to better illuminate this Krag Rifle niche.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #11 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 11:08am
Print Post  
With all I have found out about NRA firearms, and the history of DCM and NRA krags, I think that this stock was on a carbine that was officially made for or given to the NRA and subsequently stamped-either by the NRA or one of its members who owned it. I believe that because stamping the carbine would not have changed the value to any significant degree like faking a carbine sight or altering a serial number to match a documented carbine. The NRA stamp is just an interesting part of ownership history that adds to the story of the carbine but doesn't make it rare. Thus, why would anyone really want to "fake" stamp it?

I'm probably just going to use this carbine as a great source of parts that I can use for other Krags to make them more correct and cleaner. I don't think the NRA stamped stock mandates that I keep this carbine "as found". The parts are worth more than the "as found" carbine. It's not original at all.

I am considering switching barrels because the receiver with the nice high serial number is in great shape and would look wonderful with a nice Krag rifle barrel. I also have a nice building collection of rear sights I can add this one to.

So, thanks for the help. It's nice to piece these Krag histories together and it isn't easy to do it without other input from people who know a lot more than I do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #12 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 2:02pm
Print Post  
Some additional thoughts:

In the pre-WW1 era, when the 1903 Springfield was the Service Arm and was also offered for sale to qualified citizens, it made sense to mark civilian owned 1903 rifles, (sold to an NRA member by the DCM).

This made it obvious a current Service Arm was rightfully in the possession of the public.

A gun seller, wanting to get more money for an unofficially altered Krag, might fool a buyer by stamping it "NRA" to pass off a 'Deer Hunter Special as something more collectible.

Another possibility is that a seller or owner just marked 'NRA' on a Krag to assure others it was not stolen government property.

With over 11,000 DCM/NRA carbines shipped from Benicia Arsenal, if the arms were marked, they would be relatively common to see.

Whig - I think you should use this interesting Krag as you see fit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Need Help Figuring this Krag Out
Reply #13 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 6:38pm
Print Post  
11,000 is a lot more than I realized that were shipped from DCM. I know they cut down rifles and used whatever they had in order to fill the demand for carbine sized Krags back then. It's a shame they weren't officially marked at the time. makes our lives in trying to piece together the history all the harder.

Thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint