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Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. (Read 3181 times)

Lead Pusher KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 15 Location: Hartland MN Joined: Dec 15^th, 2019 Gender:	Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Dec 19^th, 2019 at 6:18pm	Print Post
	I was looking through the posts for information relating to reloading the Krag with Triple & or other BP substitutes. Reason being ease of cleaning and corrosion. I was thinking it would be fun to try and see what could be done with it. Easier on the old girl as well maybe.


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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #1 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 2:45am	Print Post
	NO!! Those BP substitutes have well-deserved reputations for rusting barrels & actions long after you thought you had cleaned them. I learned that the hard & expensive way. My fancy Hepburn doesn't shoot so good anymore. Not only that, but the Krag cartridge case was designed for smokeless from Day 1. Shooters have been having good results with cast bullets and smokeless powder in Krags for more than 120 years. Lots of info in cast bullet loading manuals. Stick with IMR powders, mainly 4198 and 3031. The real secret is using good cast bullets, proper alloy & lube, going slow & keeping good records. Keep velocity under 1500 for starters. For safety sake, stay away from 5744. That has wrecked a bunch of rifles chambered for bottle-necked cartridges.


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Culpeper KCA Forum Member Offline Posts: 904 Location: Right Coast of Africa Joined: Mar 30^th, 2005	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #2 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 7:08am	Print Post
	What is your measurement for "clean"? No one shooting US made cartridges manufactured in the last fifty years has had to worry about corrosion from smokeless powders or modern primers. Soot and cooper fouling is the least of our worries when comparing ammo of today to corrosive primers of yesterday in the historical record of fire arms. Heck I have some guns I've never cleaned. I just run an oiled patch down the bore. I read, and found out for myself, you can ruin a barrel running a rod down it too much. Of course all bets are off if I was some kind of Olympic shooter or some competition shooter. Then I would clean so well I could eat quiche off the inside of my gun's barrel. I use jacketed bullets so I don't have to dink with all of that lead bullet lube. Cleaning is minimal. I really clean when I can not put ten consecutive cold bore shots in to a six inch paper plate at 300 with my scoped rifles. And that means it is bad. My Krags? Well... SQUIRREL!

	Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of People Eating Tasty Animals (PETA). (You need to *Login* to view media files and links)
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Lead Pusher KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 15 Location: Hartland MN Joined: Dec 15^th, 2019 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #3 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 5:17pm	Print Post
	OK Bad idea. I shoot Cowboy with some guys that use BP Substitutes. Straight case cartridges. The Wild Bunch shooters shoot some Krags and I wasn't sure if they loaded any BP. I loaded up some 200gr cast with 26gr of RL7. I understand that gives a nice low velocity load. I'm going to pretty much stick with cast bullets as its just for fun shooting.


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Whig KCA Official Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1324 Location: Balt MD Joined: Sep 24^th, 2016 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #4 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 5:38pm	Print Post
	I really can't see what shooting the lower pressure black powder rounds could do to your Krag if you clean the rifle well after shooting. But, I have never seen any loads documented in black powder for the Krag. It's taking a step backwards since the Krag was developed around the smokeless powder. Buy a nice condition trap door and shoot it with black powder. It's a neat experience. I had to buy a nice condition trap door to have as a nice Springfield Armory creation that immediately pre-dated the Krag to see so many similarities in design. There are many out there at affordable prices. Then you can shoot the Krag and trap door at the same setting and enjoy history!


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psteinmayer KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 2391 Location: Ypsilanti, Michgan Joined: Aug 30^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #5 - Dec 21^st, 2019 at 9:35pm	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 2:45am: For safety sake, stay away from 5744. That has wrecked a bunch of rifles chambered for bottle-necked cartridges. I loaded NOE 311365 at 185 grains over 19.0 grains of AA 5744 and a CCI #200 primer. I shot these in my Krag Bench Rest rig for CBA cast bullet matches. Shot in a half dozen matches with this load, and not a single problem. Plus, I can practically put two shots through a single hole at 200 yards! 5744 is fine. Use established load data, and pay attention (it IS possible to load a double charge when the load is that small).


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craigster KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 64 Location: lost coast ca Joined: Dec 10^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #6 - Dec 25^th, 2019 at 3:04am	Print Post
	If you're looking to shoot light loads you could try Trail Boss. Or you could use Hodgdon's 60% H4895 data.


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craigster KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 64 Location: lost coast ca Joined: Dec 10^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #7 - Dec 25^th, 2019 at 3:12am	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 2:45am: NO!! For safety sake, stay away from 5744. That has wrecked a bunch of rifles chambered for bottle-necked cartridges. Hey Dick, could you elaborate ? I've used it in a few bottleneck applications with OK results so far. But I really don't want to wreck a rifle. Thanks, Craig


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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #8 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 8:04am	Print Post
	Craig, the most recent 5744 report I recall was posted by Brent Danielson on the Double-Gun-Single-Barrel Forum about 4 years ago. Brent bought a Low Numbered 1903 Springfield sporter in .30-06 done by some big name custom rifle guy from Michael Petrov's estate auction. IIRC, did not check, he loaded heavy cast bullets and a pretty stiff load of 5744 as a deer load. On the first shot, the action shattered, cut Brent's face badly. Shooting glasses saved his eyes. He posted pics of his face, maybe the wreck of the rifle. Brent is a very well-informed guy, a careful experimenter, very much a traditionalist. I was astonished at his report. Before that, I thought we could shoot cast bullet loads in Low Numbered Springfields without any problems. No longer. The loading data for 5744 is much like the old & much-missed HiVel #2, except that you could load HiVel #2 in anything and it would work, probably be accurate. 5744 isn't like that. It seems to get wonky at high pressures. The consensus of the single shot guys is to save 5744 for straight-walled cases & lead bullets, never use an over powder wad, not on the powder, not a bit above the powder, and don't even use case fillers, not even kapok.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #9 - Dec 28^th, 2019 at 3:19pm	Print Post
	Off on a tangent, but there might be some interesting replies to come. (You need to *Login* to view media files and links) I also found some discussion about 777 in other posts on castboolits. Remembering that it is ascorbic acid based, I also remember that ascorbic acid reacts with copper, so it might weaken the brass in time.


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craigster KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 64 Location: lost coast ca Joined: Dec 10^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #10 - Dec 28^th, 2019 at 10:06pm	Print Post
	Thanks guys for the info/input. Craig


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Parashooter KCA Forum Member Offline Kragmudgeon Posts: 514 Location: Connecticut Joined: Feb 4^th, 2010	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #11 - Dec 28^th, 2019 at 11:04pm	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Dec 27^th, 2019 at 8:04am: . . . The loading data for 5744 is much like the old & much-missed HiVel #2, except that you could load HiVel #2 in anything and it would work, probably be accurate. 5744 isn't like that. It seems to get wonky at high pressures. . . HiVel#2 and AA5744 are similar mostlly in that both are double-base extruded powders. The burning rates and intended uses are somewhat different. HiVel#2 was a medium-burning rifle powder primarily intended for full-pressure loads in 20th century military and sporting smokeless cartridges. While certainly versatile, it was not really well-suited for reduced loads generating low pressure. 5744 is described at the distributor's website thus: Quote: "Accurate 5744 is an extremely fast burning, double-base, extruded powder. This unique powder can be used in a wide range of rifle calibers and magnum handguns. 5744 is characterized by excellent ignition and consistency over a very wide performance range. Low bulky density and superior ignition characteristics make 5744 an excellent choice for reduced loads in many rifle calibers and in large capacity black powder cartridges such as the 45-70 through 45-120 and 50-90 through 50-120." Image below is from an Ideal Hand Book (predecessor to the Lyman manuals), showing several .30/40 Krag loads with HiVel#2 -


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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #12 - Dec 29^th, 2019 at 7:21pm	Print Post
	Reading the finer print in the above book. 44.0 grains 4350 and a 220 grain bullet is a safe load in a Krag?


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Parashooter KCA Forum Member Offline Kragmudgeon Posts: 514 Location: Connecticut Joined: Feb 4^th, 2010	Re: Triple 7 and other BP substitutes. Reply #13 - Dec 29^th, 2019 at 9:33pm	Print Post
	waterman wrote on Dec 29^th, 2019 at 7:21pm: Reading the finer print in the above book. 44.0 grains 4350 and a 220 grain bullet is a safe load in a Krag? Apparently the good folks in Middlefield thought so some 70 years ago. Things, including powder, change over time.


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