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 25 Accidental discharge! (Read 7716 times)
Whig
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #15 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm
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If this A.D. has not been easily understood or reproducible, there are a few areas of concern that could alter normal function of the entire trigger mechanism. I guess anything affecting normal flow of motion from one part to another could cause improper action such as an accidental discharge.

After cocking, the trigger is pressed to the rear. The slack is taken up in the first press of the trigger rearward until the second stage is reached where the sear is engaged to be released from the ledge of the firing pin rod. There is pivot at the "hinge" of the trigger to cause this sear release with response from the trigger spring pushing rearward at the front of where the sear attaches to the receiver. The rear most part of the trigger must be clear to allow for it to move upward to allow for the hinge to pivot and release the sear at the point of contact with the firing pin rod to allow the spring release of the striker in the bolt to hit the bullet primer.

So, if anything affects any part of these actions, something abnormal and potentially unexpected can happen. That could include any debris temporarily in the way of the sear spring, pressure laterally on any part of the sear or trigger to prevent smooth movement, debris in the way of the rear part of the trigger that would prevent pivot of the sear and trigger at the hinge, metal burrs or rust preventing smooth and predictable motion of any of these parts or mechanism.

I also could see where there could be "premature release" of the sear from the firing pin rod ledge if either of these is not squared off and improperly ground or worn down and not permitting solid engagement.

It would be nice to see pictures, Fred, of the trigger and sear to see if anything is worn abnormally. The trigger spring could easily be replaced, as Butlers recommended, and make sure the trigger seat is clear front and back.

This solves nothing but just serves as an additional attempt to evaluate the situation.

Thanks again Fred.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #16 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 1:15pm
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My suggestion is to start by Checking "Metal Function":

With the Krag action out of its Stock, the action "cocked", and the Safety applied, you should be able to pull the trigger so the sear will clear the 'cocking-piece.

The Safety should continue to hold the Striker in the 'cocked' position.

When released, the Trigger/Sear assembly should move fully back into its original position.
If the Safety is moved to the 'off' position, the sear should be able to fully engage the cocking-piece.

If metal has been removed from the contact surfaces of the Safety and Cocking-Piece Rod, it may allow the striker mechanism to move forward slightly when the trigger is pulled (with Safety applied).
This could block the Trigger/Sear from returning to engage the Cocking-Piece.

(My understanding of things):

The Krag Safety-Lever, when moved to the "Safe" position, slightly retracts the striker-rod and locks the bolt closed.

This allows for free movement of the trigger/sear.

If the trigger is pulled and the striker-rod is not slightly retracted, the trigger/sear can 'hang-up' on it (in a 'false' position) and not return to its raised position.
 
If this happens, the Striker will release ('Fire'), when the Safety is rotated back to the "Off" position.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2020 at 2:26pm by butlersrangers »  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #17 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 3:07pm
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I tried it this morning and no failures again. Right now I am thinking that I have a perfect storm of everything mentioned so far. I did stick a knife blade into the sear slot to see if the sear was centered. I could scootch to the right and left so if it is binding it is not extreme. It does have a little bias wanting to be to the left, so BRs first inclination of something touching the sear could be correct. I probably have a weak spring and can check it against the one just purchased from Whig. I had this thing apart and together so many times I probably forgot to lube the trigger when installing it the last time. Also I did not alter the sear in anyway, I can see some micro dings that should have been removed from the sear with a fine Arkansas hone. Also as discussed in the trigger modification thread I did not hone off any dings on the edges of the sear knuckle/hinge.
So right now the plan is to disassemble and look for all these obvious things, and reassemble correctly and hope there is not one more unknown we forgot. I looked for my small tube of gun grease and could not find it, that makes it kind of obvious I forgot to grease things doesn't it.
So it will take a couple of days to get some more grease, so that is more time to think more on this.

Got a question since the trigger was not catching the cocking piece that meant the opening cam for pulling it back was releasing it relatively slowly. How slowly does the firing pin have to be released so there is no hang fire or unintended ignition. Can you pull the trigger and let the pin down slowly enough that the pin will not dent the primer? Easy experiments to try with a primed case with no powder.

I did the check on the safety pulling the cocking piece off the sear. That was an early concern since this Krag has the bolt with the extreme wear on the lug. Everything was OK there. OOH, that is one more thing to check, make sure that in cycling the bolt it always comes back far enough to catch the trigger sear
  
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Whig
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #18 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 3:16pm
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Heck, I don't know how the firing pin rod main spring in the bolt would allow for a "slow" release to cause a misfire or hang fire. Hang fires are often due to bad or old primer chemicals that take time to explode once the primer is struck.  I have had many with old milsurp ammo.

When the sear is released, if the safety is off, the bolt should allow the striker on the firing pin rod via the main spring to strike the primer quickly with the force required to fire the primer. That is if the main spring is strong enough and clear to function properly.

In all of the dozens of Krag bolts I have dis-assembled and operated, I have yet to find a weak main spring. Says a lot for the spring metallurgy from Springfield Armory 120 years ago!
  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #19 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 3:19pm
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" OOH, that is one more thing to check, make sure that in cycling the bolt it always comes back far enough to catch the trigger sear."

That one was a red herring, pulling the cocking piece far enough back to catch the sear is automatic during the lifting the bolt handle. Short cycling the bolt will cause no harm unless you do not pull it back far enough to catch the next shell.
I tried some other things like rotating the bolt sleeve while the bolt is pulled back, impossible the Krag inventors and armory really nailed this design.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #20 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 4:36pm
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You guys are starting to lose me.

Take the Bolt out of your Krag and observe the action of the Trigger/Sear, as you slowly pull the trigger.
The first-stage should cause some lowering of the sear. The second-stage will complete the lowering of the sear.

When you slowly ease up on the trigger, the process should positively reverse itself. (You can hear and feel the mechanical contact of metal surfaces, both ways).

If the 'return' of the trigger & sear is vague, the Trigger-Spring might be weak (or a poor replacement). The other possibility is poor Stock fit and interference.

If everything is moving correctly, put the Bolt back in the rifle and move the Safety to the 'Safe' position.
Repeat the trigger sequence. The trigger should feel, sound and operate the same as when the Bolt was removed.

Fred's Main-Spring is obviously strong enough to fire the rifle! (I don't recall any mention of misfires)?

If trigger action has been vague with the rifle fully assembled, remove the Stock and repeat the above sequence.
If things work correctly with the Stock removed, the problem must be something about the fit of the Stock to the metal.
  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #21 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 5:42pm
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Whig,
Sorry I did not see your reply, my 2 were just a few minutes apart. Since the sear failed to catch the cocking piece when closing the bolt the speed that the firing pin can fall is controlled by the closing cam. On this AD I closed the bolt very slowly as we watched the bolt catch the cartridge and start pushing the round into the chamber, I did speed up towards the finish. The firing pin speed is still controlled by the opening cam. so it was still very slow compared to the normal free fall. Imagine holding the trigger as you close the bolt, the pin will move forward as controlled by the opening cam. Same speed as when opening except in the opposite direction. Surprised when I think about it that it would even ignite the primer. If you close the bolt slow enough there has to be a threshold were it is too slow to ignite.

BR,
I had already done the test to see if the safety did pull the cocking piece off the sear. It did pass. My other tests were to make sure the bolt wear/setback wear not causing any issues. Design is too robust so no issues can be created by twisting on the cocking piece, bolt or sleeve when opening the bolt even tried the same test when the bolt was fully back.
I do have a purchased firing pin with some wear on the cocking piece and can see where this could cause some issues. Will open this post up in a few minutes to attach a photo.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2020 at 8:22pm by FredC »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #22 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 6:08pm
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IMHO -Too many variables are being brought into the problem.

If I fully understand, after re-reading the original post, Fred's rifle 'fired' when he closed the bolt on a loaded chamber.

Unless the trigger was accidentally pulled, this would indicate the sear 'nose' (A) failed to adequately engage the 'sear notch' (G) of the Cocking-Piece.

Likely reasons: inadequate sear-spring or stock interference.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2020 at 7:55pm by butlersrangers »  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #23 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 6:12pm
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I am putting the 2 photos in a separate reply to make it easier to find for other searching for AD. The photos show wear on the point of the cam following surface, more extreme wear could cause the cocking  piece not to pull back far enough to catch the sear. Not my issue but could be helpful to others. Photos are now upgraded.

These photos are not from the problem sporter, but are from a junk firing pin used for experiments. The worn areas have a line drawn around the wear. The roughness in this area would be bad for a good bolt as well a possibly getting worse. For others diagnosing an AD event this will be something to check. Worse wear in this are could cause the sear surface on the cocking piece to not engage the sear.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2020 at 8:18pm by FredC »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #24 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 6:24pm
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Well, that 'Firing Pin Rod' has been messed with and the Cocking-Piece Knob appears re-shaped!
  
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King carp
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #25 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 6:25pm
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Were you able to compare the A.D. fired empty case with another fired case from the same rifle? Maybe a high primer or different indentation in the primer. Just a thought.
  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #26 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 7:48pm
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butlersrangers wrote on Jan 14th, 2020 at 6:24pm:
Well, that 'Firing Pin Rod' has been messed with and the Cocking-Piece Knob appears re-shaped!

Sorry for the confusion, the firing pin rod in the 2 last photos are from a junk purchased firing pin NOT in my sporter. They are only illustrative of what could potentially cause AD for others. The cam surface was clearly worn and I would never use it for that reason. The mods to the knob were just to see how much a person could safely take off and how much would be gained for increasing lock speed. Different photos of the same modification were on this site in a different thread several years ago.  (You need to Login to view media files and links)

For my sporter, now disassembled I did find the wrong spring that was added many years before I began the sporterizing project. Failures are hardly ever from one cause so I am looking at 2 other potential contributors now. I am going to need some better optics to see look further into this. The light on my bore scope failed and will try to adapt another light to it. I will be looking inside the stock for rubbing and at the bottom of the groove cut into the trigger. also my trigger pin was a light press fit. It was still centered when removed, but could be moved with light pressure. Probably not a contributor but should be improved on the fit anyway.
« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2020 at 2:33pm by FredC »  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #27 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 2:09am
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OK, primary cause spring was not standard, weaker because of smaller wire diameter, also longer and larger diameter than original. One end is slightly larger diameter than the other. Could be the reason it worked for years then did not. The end that is larger diameter can bind in the hole in the sear. Not sure which side was in first as I did not pay attention when I pulled it out.

In one item I have a probable cause plus a contributor. Will still address the other potential problems and investigate a couple that you all suggested. Brought over my working Mag Light to see if parts can be used to repair my HawkEye bore scope. I will continue to look for other contributing factors till I can not find anymore.

The spring that was pulled is on the left, close to 1/4 inch diameter. The spring from the newly purchased Krag on the right .227 diameter and .570 long. Close enough or should I wait for a new one?
  
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Whig
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #28 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 2:31am
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Good job, Fred! I would just replace this spring with the good one and give it a try. I think it will work fine.

Try loading it once you're at the range, though!!
  
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FredC
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Re: Accidental discharge!
Reply #29 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 3:00am
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The spring is noticeably stronger and the trigger will pull back to the full retract when released. For anyone else if your trigger does not retract when you pull it to the end of the first stage then release, you may have a modified/wrong spring or a serious lack of lube with maybe gunk holding things up.
Did clean up the sides of the trigger channel per BR suggestions. Looking with the repaired bore scope from the sides there was no evidence of rubbing but the sides are now smoother and overflow accuglass has been removed. At least I will never have to think about that one again.
Still planning to take the front step off the trigger to lengthen first stage travel. No down side to that plus a little extra sear engaged initially is a good thing. Several more small things to address.
  
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