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Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings? (Read 2074 times)
partsdept
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Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Mar 18th, 2020 at 3:33am
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Hi guys, GB 859178463 is a carbine but no saddle ring, my friend said it must be a cut down rifle. I won the auction hoping to give my dad an awesome birthday present but now I’m panicking. Any thoughts are appreciated, Mike
  
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olderthansome
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #1 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 8:44am
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Welcome to the forum.  Be prepared to be overwhelmed with information about your Carbine.  I fear you may end up being more confused than when you came in.

The short answer is "no".  All carbines do not have saddle bars and rings.  But here is where the confusion will begin.  Your Carbine is furnished with a  "short" stock rather than the longer, replacement stock that was issued for updating many carbines after 1899.  That, longer, stock had no ring or bar.  But, according to Col. Brophy who wrote "The Krag Rifle Story", in fiscal year 1901, 736 short, original length, stocks were produced without the provision for the bar and ring.  He has no indication of a reason for their manufacture.  And here is where your Carbine gets really interesting - at least to me.  I have seen, including yours, 4 of these short stocks, fitted with the 1896 Carbine rear sight, the high barrel band with sight protectors, and short, original length upper hand guard.  In addition, all three were are in exceptional condition, and most interestingly, all 3 have the receiver marked with only the date of 1896 without the word "Model" in front.  That particular detail is the rarest of the variety of marks on the Krag.  In addition, all were within the expected serial number range for such a receiver marking.  But there is still a puzzle with your Carbine.  That lies with the cartouche. None of the other examples had a cartouche.  All had the Circle "P" like yours and an initial between the "P" and the trigger guard.  And, if your stock was made in fiscal 1901 there would be no reason to have a date of 1896.  All other details are those of a especially nice 1896 Carbine.  At least two of the carbines were made with the shorter stock produced in Italian Walnut (appropriate for a 1900 -1901 date) while the hand guards appear to have been the original Black Walnut - probably correct given the rarity of the use of these guards at that time.  Your father should, indeed, be thrilled.  You did good.
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #2 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 8:47am
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Hi Mike,

Your father is a very lucky man and will enjoy receiving what appears to be a legit and super nice 1896 Krag carbine!!!

Your Krag does not show up in the list of "Serial Numbers of Known U.S. Krags" in the back of Franklin B. Mallory's book "The Krag Rifle Story"

Not to worry...Most Krags don't wind up on the list.  However, your Krag's serial number places it in the company of many listed carbines, produced before and after yours, which is a good indicator that it is a carbine.

According to the serial number...your Krag was produced between May or June of 1896.

The acceptance cartouche stamp has the initials of Springfield Armory sub-inspector J. S. Adams.

1896 carbines were marked 1895, 1896 or Model 1896.

As stated above, your carbine is marked 1896 making it one of the rarest variations...only 5,000 were supposedly produced.

Model 1896 carbines can be found with or without inletting for the swivel bar plate.

The rear sight appears to be correct and by it self would fetch about $500 to $600 dollars in today's market.

The front sight looks kind of funky...I can't tell if it's been damaged or some after market replacement?

IMHO, Your GB purchase is a wonderful example of a Krag 1896 carbine...albeit a very expensive one.

I am sure and hope others will chime in with their opinions.

Regards



« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2020 at 8:27pm by Local Boy »  
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partsdept
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #3 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 11:31am
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Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and thoughts, your help is VERY much appreciated. I was able to enlarge the picture of the front sight and it does have damage to the front edge also I see the top is flat not ramped as I see in other examples. I would very much like to hear anyone else’s opinions on the gun. Mike
  
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Whig
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #4 - Mar 18th, 2020 at 11:32am
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Welcome also to KCA!

Your father will enjoy his new Krag carbine with all of the good intentions you made. It is a beautiful Krag carbine that can be enjoyed and, most likely, shot with great joy.

No mention has been made of the condition of the bore on this fine looking carbine. The condition of the bore and the function of the bolt and receiver as a whole determine it's shootability. If the bore shows a lot of wear or pitting, it certainly doesn't match the outside appearance. Should be rather nice, I would think.

The discussion of the saddle ring is made above. I have a couple comments to add.

The front sight looks like a Lyman sight that is not arsenal made but after market. Not important to you or your father. It should work fine.

The entire carbine looks to have been refurbished in the sense that the stock may have been re-finished but the metal has all been re-blued. It is pristine. This carbine almost looks like a Turnbull restoration. Many parts of original Krags were not blued like this carbine.

There is a possibility that the 1896 cartouche has been re-struck on this stock. It looks like it is partially double struck and very clean.

Any Krag that has been restored after the arsenal manufacture loses most, if not all, military collectible value. It is beautiful but the military collector wants an original and correct piece as close to arsenal produced as possible.

That having been said, you do have a beautiful carbine that will make a great gift. That's what you bought it for!

Obviously you paid a lot for it but only because other people were bidding against you and thought it was worth a lot also. You guys have set the market value for this fine Krag. There were 5 bidders who bid it that high.

Collectors of military firearms probably would not have paid as much as you did. I saw this and put a bid of $965 on it. That's what it was worth to me.

Thanks for sharing and please let us know how your father reacts when he's given this!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #5 - Mar 19th, 2020 at 4:37pm
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That is a handsome 1896 carbine with a lot of things correct about it.

Krag #34428 was manufactured around June, 1896. The number is in the carbine serial number range.

IMO - The biggest mystery is the presence of a 'cartouche' (dated 1896) with the absence of a sling-bar.

(A model 1896 carbine stock variation, that lacks the sling-bar, was used on some 1896 carbines that were rebuilt. As others have said, this replacement stock normally also lacks a 'cartouche').

Definitely, a carbine worthy of study. I hope Dick Hosmer and other 1896 carbine pros "sound-in" on this one!

My eyes may deceive me. Is this an early "thin wrist" stock? It will be interesting if it has two, rather than three, cleaning rod holes in the 'butt-trap'.

If the metal has been re-finished, it is possibly Armory/arsenal work.

The front-sight blade is a commercial replacement. A good replica is available from S&S Firearms.

It appears the muzzle 'crown' area may have been 'touched up' a bit with a file?

  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #6 - Mar 19th, 2020 at 4:39pm
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Partsdept's - rear-sight: (No buggered screws on this Krag, but, a well-worn sight knob).

IMHO - A very interesting carbine to learn from.
  
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partsdept
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #7 - Mar 19th, 2020 at 8:35pm
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Thank you Butlersrangers, I'm so happy to have such good information coming in, you guys really know your stuff. I have been researching as much as possible with the information in the discussion. I will check to see if 2 or 3 holes are present for the cleaning rods. "Olderthansome" mentioned some he saw were devoid of the "Model" stamping, does anyone have more on this? Thanks, Mike
  
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Re: Do all 1896 carbines have saddle rings?
Reply #8 - Mar 20th, 2020 at 2:58am
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Early Krag receivers did not bear the term 'model'. The date stamped on the receiver was the year of manufacture.

The U.S. Ordnance Department adopted the Krag-Jorgensen in 1892.

Springfield Armory did not begin manufacturing the rifle, that we call the model 1892, until 1894. The receivers were stamped '1894', (no model).

Rifles and carbines manufactured the next year were stamped 1895, (no model). The manufacture of the carbine, that we call a "model 1896", actually started in 1895 and was so dated.

In Early 1896 the carbines were stamped '1896', until around serial number 37000.
After this, carbines and rifles were stamped "model 1896", (regardless of year manufactured), until production switched to the "model 1898" action, around July, 1898.

'Partsdept' - You and your father would probably enjoy an inexpensive paper-bound book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", by Joe Poyer. It sells for around $25 on ebay.
This is a handy beginner's text with lots of good photos, drawings, and information (and some mistakes).
  
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