Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
 10 Real Gunbroker Men of Genius (Read 4223 times)
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #15 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 1:17am
Print Post  
The proof mark on Krag barrels supposedly showed that after production testing was done successfully with a load rated at 70,000 psi. PSI and CUP ratings are somewhere around 7% of each other, + or -.

So, the "safe" rating of 40,000 CUP does not mean that things start blowing a part at 40,001 CUP. There's some room to spare, Mr. Petrov's experiments not to be ignored, though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Culpeper
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline



Posts: 904
Location: Right Coast of Africa
Joined: Mar 30th, 2005
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #16 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 6:16am
Print Post  
But.  ...But.  ...But what about 40,000.25?  The Horror!  That's it.  I have the answer to safely handle my Krags.  I'll put together some deer hunting rounds using spent primers.

Whew.  Now I will not have to worry if 112 will blow up on me while I am hunting.  Roll Eyes

I agree.  Some folks (no one here) forget that the gun designers in the late 1800s were accomplished and talented engineers who would never put their names on an inferior and dangerous gun that could cause harm to people.

.
  

Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of People Eating Tasty Animals (PETA).  (You need to Login to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #17 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 2:29pm
Print Post  
I have been hanging around here long enough to know the Krag is relatively strong and long lived if common sense is used.
I got the impression the seller had been feeding hundreds of rounds of 303 through it. Finally looked at the ad and 3 rounds. He bought it from someone that thought is was converted. Maybe he is just an idiot for goofy advertising, instead.

I have never touched a drill to a Krag receiver, but it has been described by a gunsmith that I trust as hard on the case and butter soft under the case. Looked at the fellows gauging of the barrel with a 303 round, I would guess that barrel is closer to. 308 than . 311 or .313. All that said if 303 rounds are loaded to 49K Cup then this thing has operating at 30.06 pressure levels for some time. Butter soft steel will move under abuse even though no cracks show. I think this would happen mainly in the receiver as the bolt treated with cyanide on the lug would be harder since more surface area on the angles and corners would have been benefited from the extra carbon.

My worry was that increased head space could lead to a separation in the extractor area. Looked at a loose Krag barrel and that is pretty unlikely. If the headspace is stretched on this one, a person could keep on using 303 brass with 308 bullets and stop further damage. It is a shame this was done to an otherwise nice looking rifle. Maybe the first owner that did the 303 thing, only shot a few rounds and damage is minimal to non-existent. I would pass on it because of the unknown.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Parashooter
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Kragmudgeon

Posts: 514
Location: Connecticut
Joined: Feb 4th, 2010
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #18 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 5:23pm
Print Post  
FredC wrote on Mar 27th, 2020 at 2:29pm:
. . . if 303 rounds are loaded to 49K Cup then this thing has operating at 30.06 pressure levels for some time. . .

This topic demonstrates the level of confusion arising from old and newer pressure methods. By current SAAMI standards Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for .303 British is 49000 psi measured by piezo transducer and 45000 CUP by the old copper crusher method. These pressures are actually the same - it's only the method that's different. Old publications from before general adoption of piezo equipment usually express crusher pressures as "psi", leading to many misunderstandings.

The latest SAAMI publication I have doesn't list a transducer pressure for the .30/40 cartridge (probably due to low production) but specifies a MAP of 40000 CUP (crusher). While the difference between this pressure and the .303's 45000 CUP is substantial, it's not what I'd call catastrophic. In addition, the .303 cartridge shown in the auction is likely Winchester commercial 180-grain - not necessarily loaded to maximum pressure.

Table below comes from an old Hercules data booklet -
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whig
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1324
Location: Balt MD
Joined: Sep 24th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #19 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 5:54pm
Print Post  
This is the same kind of tabulation that shows there is a + or - 7% variation between these two pressure unit determinations.

Good discussion about concerns for over-pressurizations and re-loading concerns with these older firearms.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #20 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 9:16pm
Print Post  
Parashooter,
We have discussed this before does not hurt to do it again, thanks for the chart. Interesting that the 2 straight cases that I see 45/70 and 30 carbine show the same pressure for both styles.
303 and 308 with very similar powder capacities are 9 and 15 percent different.

With the Krag in the ad we do not know the actual bore size, if it happened to be .307 just a fuzz on the tight size the pressure could be a lot different than the 45/49 for 303 standard commercial ammo.

Proof rounds were mentioned at 70K. One proof pressure test in old riveted boilers made them stronger by shifting all the rivets till they were bearing evenly. Without the proof test only a couple might have had a load, when they failed the next tight ones would bear the load till they failed, pretty soon you get a catastrophic failure at what should be a safe pressure. I think the same principle applies to the proofing of the original Krags, the lug surfaces have slight angles on them, proofing would mush the surfaces slightly so that a higher percentage of those surfaces were bearing the load. One advantage the rifle has is normal wear would help the surfaces mate over time without proofing. Constant repeated overloads can not be good for a boiler or an rifle.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
psteinmayer
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 2391
Location: Ypsilanti, Michgan
Joined: Aug 30th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #21 - Mar 28th, 2020 at 1:39pm
Print Post  
As always... Para comes through with the good stuff.  Many thanks Para!

This all boils down to misinformation, misunderstanding, and downright confusion.  As FredC says, there are too many unknowns.  Was it REALLY chambered for .303, or did some unsuspecting or uneducated shooter simply not know the difference (to the untrained eye, at first glance, one could easily mistake .303 for 30-40).  Without actually speaking to the first guy sticking a .303 into it... and without actually measuring the chamber/barrel/receiver/etc., there are too many things left to chance!
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #22 - Mar 28th, 2020 at 8:06pm
Print Post  
FWIW - If I understand the Springfield Armory procedures correctly, our barrels were proofed with special (sub-caliber) cartridges before they were rifled, out-side contours were turned, and several straightening operations were performed.

The barrels received this initial proofing before being "finished" & screwed into their ultimate Krag actions.

(The actions were likely proofed in a different process).

IIRC - A percentage of finished Krags, from a 'lot', underwent an additional proof firing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
madsenshooter
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1079
Joined: Sep 10th, 2009
Re: Real Gunbroker Men of Genius
Reply #23 - Mar 28th, 2020 at 8:57pm
Print Post  
I've been given several varieties of .303 British ammo but I have no .303 British rifles.  So most of the .303 got sized down in my tightest chambered Krag and it's now emergency Krag ammo, or it could still be used in .303 since headspace is on the rim.  I'd use it in a sporter that has a .3105 groove diameter barrel if I needed to.  Most is hunting ammo, but there's also some South African ball of WWII production.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint