Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
 10 Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags (Read 3427 times)
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 738
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Apr 10th, 2020 at 2:57am
Print Post  
Here is a link to an article about Remington-Lee barrels installed on Krag rifles used by an American team for the Palma Trophy in 1903. The American team lost the trophy to the British team due to a technicality, the American barrels weren't proofed.

The article is from a 1919 "Outer's Book - Recreation".

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #1 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 4:30am
Print Post  
This article has major errors.

The U.S. Team had match grade barrels that were made by J. Stevens Arms & Tool Company, under the supervision of Harry M. Pope.
(In my initial response, I said Winchester made the barrels, but, I was confusing stories).

The Palma Match rules called for the use of military rifles with standard 'issue' barrels.

According to Frank Mallory, "K.R.S.", 2nd. edition, page 194:
"These barrels, unless specially ordered otherwise, are rifled with our smokeless cut, 8 grooves, 8 inch twist, right handed, so as to allow for the drift angle on the Krag sight".

Brophy page 189 image:
« Last Edit: Apr 10th, 2020 at 5:51am by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 738
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #2 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 4:46am
Print Post  
This link indicates they used Pope barrels. Not sure if this is an "Official" website. But there sure was a dispute.

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #3 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 5:03am
Print Post  
FWIW:

Per Mallory, "KRS", 2nd. edition, page 99, the 1907 U.S. Palma Team had 20 Krag rifles with star-gauged barrels and privately manufactured ammunition.

Mallory, page 187, wrote about a Winchester (1905) letter that informed the Ordnance Department about some competitors ordering custom Krag barrels, from Winchester, and asking that 'identifying marks' be left off.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 738
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #4 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 12:21pm
Print Post  
Here is a British article after the U.S. won the trophy, but before the controversy, on page 363(next page down). I think the British at first "OK'd" the barrels, but not in writing. They got upset after the U.S. had won. I'm surprised they didn't qualify arms before matches instead of having embarrassing moments like this that the U.S. team undoubtedly went through.

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
903+palma+trophy+picture&hl=en&source=newbks_fb#v=onepage&q=1903%20palma%20troph
y%20picture&f=false
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 738
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #5 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 12:56pm
Print Post  
The trophy would not be competed for again until 1907. Here is an article from the "Army and Navy Register" from 2/3/1906 announcing the upcoming event with some background. On the link below you will have to click on the tab on the inset scroll bar to get to the right page. Otherwise, I re-wrote it below for easier reading. Note that the U.S. team would win the trophy in 1907.

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

Here are some links announcing the 1907 U.S. win. I am assuming they were using the 1903 Springfield by then, but I am not sure.

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
(You need to Login to view media files and links) ( 50 KB | 4 Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #6 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 2:08pm
Print Post  
If any of you all still have a copy of 2004 Gun Digest there is a 13 page article "The truth about the 1903 Palma". A couple of the photos of Pope were contributed by Michael Petrov. Pope cut the grooves shallower on the barrels to a .00275 uniform depth. That is 5 decimal places! It is hard to hold 5 decimal places on a outside diameter today, much less on 8 points on a bore diameter.

Today ballistic coefficient is figured on smooth bullets. After bullets travel through the bore and have grooves formed in them the coefficient is less than advertised. Popes 8 shallower grooves would have had less loss of velocity plus the higher initial velocity mentioned.

Evidentially the British had 2 private companies building service arms at the time. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.
« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2020 at 2:39am by FredC »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #7 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 5:48pm
Print Post  
FredC - Thanks for the mention of the 2004 Gun Digest article. Something worth looking for at future gun shows.

It would appear that perhaps no national team was "awarded" the Palma Trophy, in 1903, after the U.S. returned it.
It may have just been returned to the team that had last previously won it.

I guess some of the British barrels were custom made, but, followed official dimensions and rifling-twist.

p.s. - Heck, I splurged and bought a copy on ebay for $7, shipped.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 738
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #8 - Apr 10th, 2020 at 9:32pm
Print Post  
I'm sure you'll give us the "low down" on it when you get it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #9 - May 13th, 2020 at 3:24pm
Print Post  
BR did you ever get your 2004 Gun Digest? It also had a multi page article on Hudson designed bullets for Krags. Now with your photo of the Pope Stevens barrel on the museum thread, it makes it clear no one was hiding anything. If Pope had all original stamps on the barrel it might have been construed as fraud. Not sure what the rules were back then, maybe the eight shallower groves was the point? If he had made them with 4 standard grooves just tighter tolerance, would that have been OK?

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #10 - May 13th, 2020 at 4:40pm
Print Post  
The Stevens-Pope barrels, that the U.S. team used in 1903 at Bisley, had a rifling twist-rate of 1 turn in 8 inches.
(Springfield Armory 'Issue' Krag barrels were 1 turn in 10 inches).

The Steven's-Pope barrels improved stability of the custom 220 grain projectiles at 1,000 yards.

In 1903, 'Issue' U.S. Krag ammo was a handicap for long range shooting.
"Whistler & Aspinwall - .30" propellant was sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity.
The Government 220 grain projectile was a poor performer.
An improved (Hudson-Thomas designed) 'windbucker' 220 grain projectile was used by the U.S. team at the 1903 Bisley 'Palma Match'.

The U.S. team won the match, but, the results were voided and the trophy returned to the custody of the previous year's winner, (Britain-1902 - at Ottawa), to be competed for at the next future match.
There was no default 1903 winner. Most of the teams had custom barrels and tweaked their ammo, but, only the U.S. Team's barrels changedĀ  their country's standard rifling grooves and twist. (This was a clear 'rule' violation).

(IMHO - The Palma Trophy of 1903 should have gone to the French, firing Berthier rifles with horrible sights, or the Norwegians, who fired their 6.5X55mm Krags "offhand")!

Possibly, one of the illegitimate U.S. Krags of 1903 is in the NRA-Museum in Virginia.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #11 - May 13th, 2020 at 8:15pm
Print Post  
'FredC' - I did receive my copy of the 2004 "Gun Digest". The articles on the 1903 Palma Match and 'The Hudson-Krag Handloads' are quite interesting.

The 'boxed quote' in your last post is not what I wrote.

I wrote that: "Whistler & Aspinwall .30" propellant was sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity.

This reportedly caused variation in shot elevation and it was difficult to maintain 'correct' rear-sight settings with changing match conditions.
This observation was stated in an article, by NRA - Shooting Sports, regarding the 1901, 1902, and 1903 Palma Matches.

I haven't read or commented on 'W.A. - .30 powder' and pressures.

IIRC - The gist of the 'Shooting Sports' article was that early propellants lacked the consistency, stability, and predictability of more modern powders.

(IMHO - This sure had to add to the challenge of long range shooting, back in the day).
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2020 at 12:55am by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #12 - May 13th, 2020 at 10:11pm
Print Post  
Mallory commented in his book, "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, page 173, ... "Peyton powder was used initially in the 2,200 f.p.s. cartridge, but a switch was made to Laflin & Rand W. A. when it was found the latter powder gave lower average pressures".

Mallory reported the 2,200 f.p.s. round as developing 45,000 p.s.i. breech pressure and the 2,000 f.p.s. rounds were loaded to 40,000 p.s.i. pressure level.

I would assume, high temperatures would have increased these pressures.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Remington-Lee Barrels On Krags
Reply #13 - May 14th, 2020 at 12:24am
Print Post  
butlersrangers wrote on May 13th, 2020 at 4:40pm:
"Whistler & Aspinwall - .30" propellant was sensitive to changes inĀ  temperature and humidity.

I have wondered if this had something to do with the cracked lugs during the 2200 fps experiment. With all the discussion of 303 ammo and other heavy loads in Krags on this forum in the last year, why did they have the problem?
I know pressure goes up with temperature, pressures are MAP Maximum Average Pressure. Maybe the WA powder was really affected by 120F temps?

BR, did you get your copy of the 2004 GD?

I tried to straighten it out and it got worse and changed position. My computer is not working well today or I am not holding my mouth right. After 4 tries it is more or less as intended but still out of order. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint