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 10 Watch those "C's" (Read 4122 times)
King carp
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Watch those "C's"
Jun 11th, 2020 at 1:52am
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After a informative conversation with one of our members about krag carbine sights I thought I would share a couple things I have learned. Carbine sights command a premium so this often brings out the fakers. A good magnifying glass can save the collector money. The first three pics show legitimate krag carbine sight markings. The wear on the first one is even showing the "C" was not a recent addition. The second has deposits in the letter of which there are remnants on the rest of the sight.
  
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King carp
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #1 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 2:01am
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These 3 pics show some fake carbine sight markings. None of these Mark's have the "ear" on the top of the C. That does not mean that there are not some fakes that have that. The first pic shows uneven wear on the marking. The second has a double stamp. The third is on an out and out fake sight. So mind your "Ps" and "Qs: but watch your "Cs".
  
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Whig
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #2 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 2:24am
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Good topic to review periodically.

Newbies take note.

Thanks.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #3 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 3:49am
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1. A real "C" on a real model 1898 carbine eye-piece.

2. An incorrect "C" on an altered model 1898 rifle sight eye-piece. (On the '98 rifle eye-piece, the three notches were slightly off-set to the right for 'drift'. (Carbine eye-piece notches were not off-set to right. The Center Index Mark, "C", and Center Notch should all be in a straight line).
« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2020 at 7:52pm by butlersrangers »  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #4 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 6:23am
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Great post - but, honestly, those last three (not the eyepiece pics) are just plain AWFUL work - not even close to the real thing. No one should be fooled thereby. BTW, the "ear" is a serif.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #5 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 2:18pm
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"Reproduction" or "Fake" ?

S&S Firearms is a nice company and I get some minor Krag parts from them from time to time. They have a lot of original parts.
When original screws and knobs are unavailable, S&S offers some reproduction parts. This is useful.
(I prefer it, when newly made parts are not exactly made like the originals and readily identifiable).

In recent years, S&S has "Re-manufactured" some original sight parts. They have altered the ramps of 1898 and 1902 sight bases and marked them with a "C". They have ground 1896 sight leaves and re-marked the graduations.
(FWIW - I disagree with this practice. Although, it does not fool the experienced, it ruins original parts for no good purpose. Someday, it will cause confusion).

At gun shows in recent years, I find myself often unable to tell if some canvas & leather items, and brass buckles, are original or reproduction? By revealing fraud pieces on the internet are we training Fakers? Its all a slippery slope!

(A lot of people view the KCA Site, but, never reveal themselves ... hmmm ... just thinking).
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2020 at 8:59pm by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #6 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 7:48pm
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Parts of the model 1898 Dickson sight are commonly seen in faked carbine sights, (especially utilizing the relatively short rifle base). Note the 'halo' of disrupted metal surrounding fake "C".

An obvious 'red flag' is a "C" stamped where they never really appeared, (like on a 1902 eye-piece). BTW - The fake "C" is up-side-down!

Note - The 1898 (R&C) sight-base and 1902 (R&C) sight-base use a totally different spring for the leaf.

(FWIW - I believe 1898 bases were all intended to be 'scrap' and never officially reused by the Ordnance Department. They did get into the hands of Bannerman, Stokes-Kirk, and Sedgley, through government auctions).
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2020 at 9:00pm by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #7 - Jun 11th, 2020 at 8:31pm
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Pictured is a complete 1898 rifle sight. Next to it is an 1898 leaf with a Faked eye-piece.
Although the bogus "C" is centered with the 'index-mark', and doesn't look too bad shape-wise, there is disruption of surrounding metal and the three notches are off-set to the right. (It is a rifle eye-piece).
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2020 at 9:02pm by butlersrangers »  
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Cadcord
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2020 at 3:16am
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Outstanding data, amazes me on why there are so many fake items especially sights with the Krag rifle and carbine, compared to other rifles like the M1 Garand or carbines like the M1 carbine.
I started collecting the modern stuff 1st and working backwards, now on the Krag. Of course my site would be a fake one.. so now looking for the correct one..lol Crazy, cannot wait to see what fake stuff is in the muskets... I guess the older the rifle or carbine the more fake items exist..
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #9 - Jun 13th, 2020 at 5:15am
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Presently, there is probably more faking going on with M1 Garand rifles and M1 carbines.

Legitimate arsenal rebuilds are routinely being 'parted out' and reassembled to make them more original! ... including, Chinese parts too!

With U.S. Krags, IMO, the main problem has been efforts of some sellers to pass off altered 'deer rifles' as carbines or rare models for the past 70 years.

"Fraud" is rewarded by impulsive & uninformed buyers.

Good gun books are a better resource than the internet.
"Know, before, you spend Dough".

Still, most of us get fooled, from time to time.
  
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Cadcord
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #10 - Jun 14th, 2020 at 2:35pm
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I was able to spend a lot of time at the CMP South store back in 2003-2007 selected a few m1 Garands, 1903 springfields, and 1917 enfields. They told me back then that you will never get to select these types of rifles in this quality and correctness ever again. My grand father gave me his M1 Carbine before he passed away he borrowed during ww2. It appears most military rifles and carbines have all been rebuilt, and I do agree the Krag seems to be the one that was turned into deer rifles the most. Kind of like the GSA silver dollars, everyone broke them open until not many were left, now GSA silver dollars in a GSA holder command a premium. A Real Krag rifle not messed with is super rare, and site like this one help us not to get burned. I just wish I found site before I bought my Krag, I am happy with it, and it will have the right site if I ever find one for it. Smiley Thank you so much for the data. Here is my krag on the wall with a few friends.
  
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Whig
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #11 - Jun 14th, 2020 at 9:04pm
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Nice display wall, CadCord!  Can't beat that kind of MilSurp collection.

I have a couple of those old GSA Carson City Morgans from when I was a kid. Nice treasures now, like you said. I didn't realize people broke them open that much. Mine's still intact, fortunately.
  
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Cadcord
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Re: Watch those "C's"
Reply #12 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 9:54pm
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Whig,

It seems Krag collectors also collect coins too. Which makes sense this Rifle and Carbines are tough to find....

Thanks Smiley

Nick (Cadcord) Smiley
  
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