Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
 10 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags (Read 9796 times)
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Sep 22nd, 2010 at 10:41pm
Print Post  
This may be an often asked question, but since I'm new to the forum, here goes.  How many 1896 carbines that were issued to the 1st US Volunteer Cavalry (Rough Riders) have actually turned up after all these years?  I was curious because I have one according to the serial number of my carbine, which is listed in The Springfield Research Service book.  I'm not sure of what volume, It is at home and I'm at my office.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #1 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 4:56am
Print Post  
I'm not looking at the books right now, but I think something over a hundred or so are listed, but of those how many actually exist, I do not know. If yours is specifically listed (not just "close"), you have a VERY desirable gun.

I don't have an RR carbine, but do have something almost as good - an 1896 carbine from the China Relief Expedition - the Boxer Rebellion ("55 Days at Peking").
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #2 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 3:00pm
Print Post  
Well here it is Mr. Hosmer.  Serial # 27786.  (I think I listed in an earlier post 28xxx (again trying to go from memory without the gun in front of me. I will try to attach my photos with this post.  By the way, the China Relief Expedition Rifle is VERY cool indeed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 3:15pm
Print Post  
I'm unable to attach more than one file at a time.  It is probably me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 3:16pm
Print Post  
Close up of rear sight
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 3:18pm
Print Post  
And original cleaning rods still inside the butt trap.  I purchased this carbine back in 1988 from a pawn shop in Talladega, AL for $150.  Did I get a good buy or what?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #6 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 3:19pm
Print Post  
overall view
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #7 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 5:20pm
Print Post  
I just noticed comparing my rear sight picture with the photos on the main page, my elevation ladder is backwards.  someone in the past must have removed it, and then forgot which way it went back on.  I will very carefully correct this. Fortunately, I have a Brownells screwdriver set.  Another thing I noticed is that the sight is graduated to only 1800 yards, but has the C stamp in the correct place.  Could this be a very early carbine sight, or an arsenal replacement?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #8 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 7:43pm
Print Post  
So much for my remembering how many USV Krags were listed - it's closer to 200; and I see your number DOES appear. I think you made a great buy! There cannot be too many left around. Very nice!

Having said that, a couple of things "disturb" me. The receiver shows heavy wear - possibly even a welded repair - yet other parts (barrel band, sight slide, rods, and magazine box, to name a few) are almost as crisp and new as the day they were made. Can you shed any light on that?

I further suspect the rear sight - in this case, I think the "C" is the "condemned" stamp. It is not quite in the right place, and carbine sights were graduated to "20" from the git-go. It is hard to see, turned over, but I THINK the slide is from a rifle as well. The area around the sighting notch should be depressed by about 1/32", and that one LOOKS like it runs straight across.

The stock appears to be the early thin-wrist style, which would be correct, but it is odd to think that the carbine would have been rebuilt (as appears to be the case) without changing the stock, which was a well-known problem.

As they say, "if only they could talk!"

I realize that I have offered opinions that were not asked for, and I ask your forgiveness for my frankness - after 72 years of life - and 40+ years of collecting Krags, I tend to call things as I see them. No personal malice intended.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #9 - Sep 23rd, 2010 at 10:01pm
Print Post  
No malice at all taken.  The receiver photo doesn't show it well, but there is faint outline of a thumbprint right over the worn area on the receiver.  I had a gunsmith go over it when I bought it all those years ago and he declared it safe to shoot.  He thought initially what you did, but there was no heat discoloration or indications of welding inside the receiver.  Could the thumbprint be corrosion from heavy use, with either sweaty or bloody hands?  My own left thumb falls right into that area if I was loading the carbine.  I do have a photo of the cartouche, but it is very faint. I will include it anyway to see if you can make anything out.  It looked like 1897 to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #10 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 11:18am
Print Post  
I have some more information about my 1896 carbine #27786.  5madfarmers on another forum stated that on p.195 of Mallory's book my serial number appears.  It shows it was issued to Thomas O'Neill, a wagoner in G troop 1st US Volunteer Cavalry.  Other research shows that O' Neill was from Springer, NM.  One thing that troubled me was that 5madfarmers stated that since my carbine had an 1897 cartouche, it was an was a 2nd block carbine stock on a first block carbine, which would make it incorrect.  He discounts what I have listed in the Springfield Research Service book that states that rifles and carbines did not get their stocks installed until right before they shipped from the arsenal.  By this criteria, a first block carbine could have been shipped with a second block stock, or at least I think so.  In the matter of the incorrect rear sight 5madfarmers also stated that the government did not condemn parts on krags by placing a "c" stamp on them.   One final question.  Now knowing who the carbine belonged to, what kind of value does it have and would it be increased if I could locate an original 1896 rear sight?  Thanks as always for your help and opinions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
5MadFarmers
Ex Member


Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #11 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 10:42pm
Print Post  
Nucmedman wrote on Nov 11th, 2010 at 11:18am:
I have some more information about my 1896 carbine #27786.  5madfarmers on another forum stated that on p.195 of Mallory's book my serial number appears.  It shows it was issued to Thomas O'Neill, a wagoner in G troop 1st US Volunteer Cavalry.  Other research shows that O' Neill was from Springer, NM.

Yup.

Quote:
One thing that troubled me was that 5madfarmers stated that since my carbine had an 1897 cartouche, it was an was a 2nd block carbine stock on a first block carbine, which would make it incorrect.

Yup.

Quote:
He discounts what I have listed in the Springfield Research Service book that states that rifles and carbines did not get their stocks installed until right before they shipped from the arsenal.

He also discounts accounts of M1 carbines turning the tide at Gettysburg and M16 suppression fire at Edson's Ridge.  With reason.

Quote:
By this criteria, a first block carbine could have been shipped with a second block stock, or at least I think so.

Really?

Quote:
In the matter of the incorrect rear sight 5madfarmers also stated that the government did not condemn parts on krags by placing a "c" stamp on them.

Go ahead and find me another Krag part, marked with a "C," which isn't carbine.  In the case of that sight I'd say the "C" stands for "Counterfeit."  That is clearly a rifle sight and rifle slide.  Not only do the parts not match the receiver but the slide doesn't match the sight.

Quote:
 One final question.  Now knowing who the carbine belonged to, what kind of value does it have and would it be increased if I could locate an original 1896 rear sight?  Thanks as always for your help and opinions.


The additional pictures, and reflection, leave me asking the famous Mook question.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #12 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 12:23am
Print Post  
5madfarmers, if I wanted smart alec comments, I would have asked for them.  By the way, the comment about the stocking of rifles and carbines in the Springfield Research Service book, Vol. 1 was a note written by Mr. Mallory himself.  I don't know if you are a published author with credentials, like Mr. Mallory or Mr. Hosmer.  If you are, I apologize.  But it upsets me when I am looking for honest opinions about a potentially valuable carbine I have (and I do appreciate the added information you gave me), not contrite and condescending remarks.  I am 47 years old, not some pimple faced kid!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
5MadFarmers
Ex Member


Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #13 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 1:28am
Print Post  

Quote:
"By Mar. 14, 1896, Col. Mordecai stated that 10,000 carbines were "in hand" and manufacture of the necessary Model 1896 carbine sights was well underway.  This statement conflicts with the official production figures, which show that only 7,111 carbines were produced during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1896." Mallory and Olson, "The Krag Rifle Story," Page 65


The 7,111 were immediately followed by just under 3,000 more which show up in the next fiscal year's report.  The serials from all 10,000 are more or less a solid block.  They didn't make parts for 7,000 and then 3,000 -  "10,000 carbines were "in hand"' as Mordecai stated. 

So Mallory wasn't infallible.  Somehow I don't think that would have surprised him.

Quote:
But it upsets me when I am looking for honest opinions


In my considered opinion you are not.   

The serial in question makes it a notable piece.  It'll receive additional scrutiny over a run of the mill gun.  Why that would surprise you is a mystery.

Note that, upon seeing the serial, the first thing I did was advise you that the serial was listed in Mallory's book.  I then gave a valid view of the parts I could observe from the few pictures.  From my perspective you received valid advice.  Given that you were the one asking it's not surprising that my response to your questioning of the bits you do not like isn't something that'll please you.  Keep asking until you get an answer you like.  You will not get that from me.

Cheers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #14 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 4:43pm
Print Post  
Its not that I didn't like your answer, but it is somewhat different from other answers I have received (all of which differed from the other by the way).  I was not questioning or slamming you by nay means.  I merely wanted to post what opinion you gave, along with what Mr. Hosmer had given earlier, and see if anyone else in the forum had an opinion or idea that either agreed or differed
        Here is another scenario that I thought of for all the conflicting parts on my carbine.  Could the carbine have been sent surplus to Bannermans and the stock was replaced and a rifle rear sight was added with a "C" stamp added for good measure (although I don't think the Bannerman people were that detail oriented).  If I upset you, I aplologize, no offense intended.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo