Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
 10 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags (Read 9802 times)
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #15 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 8:31pm
Print Post  
Where to start - where to start?

Firstly, 5MF and I are friends. I've been a guest in his home. Having said that, even though his responses ARE 110% correct, his manner, and often flippant-sounding sarcasm, at times annoy even me. But, look past that - he HAS the facts!

I've been collecting longer, and published the first half of a guidebook on trapdoors, but he is doing REAL research on an unprecedented scale. His work, when published in about ten years, will DWARF Mallory and Brophy. He has already found much they missed. I'm not kidding.

Back to your carbine:

Is it real? Yes, mostly - the stock cannot be faked (but it well could have been swapped. Has the arm always been as we see it? NO. Who scrambled the parts? We'll never know. What does the "C" mean on the rifle sight leaf? Certainly NOT "carbine". Based on earlier arms, I THINK it means condemned - note the apparent damage at around the midpoint. What's it worth? What you can get for it. The receiver was issued to O'Neill - but the MANY incompatible finish and wear issues will degrade the price greatly. The bit about the stocks being installed immediately prior to shipment is, I believe, an "uncle Charlie" story, NOT based on fact. That certainly is not how the trapdoors were handled. Could it be a Bannerman? Yes.

Hope that helps. Please feel free to continue the discussion! Smiley
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
5MadFarmers
Ex Member


Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #16 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 10:05pm
Print Post  
Thin wrist with 1897 cartouche isn't valid.  Either we're not seeing the wrist correctly, not surprising given the angle, or he's misreading that cartouche. 

Nucmedman, if you really want to know the details of that gun you're going to have to grin and bear it as I act in the role of prosecutor.  My role is to discount it.  Your role is to toe the line and provide the evidence to refute my allegations.  I'm going to be very annoying.  If that gun survives the scrutiny you'll be able to print this thread and keep it with the gun.  It'll be a record of the questions raised and the responses thereto.  If you do not provide the information requested I will stop and move on.  You will have lost given that the gun is significant.  Either way you'll know what it is if you cooperate to the end.  Consider it a test of fire for the gun.  I'll repeat - it's in your interest to complete the examination.  If it survives you'll have some useful information on it.  I'll repeat, lose your temper and I'll stop.  I will lose nothing by stopping but you will.  Get mad, call me names, that I don't care about.  Stop providing the information needed - that'll get me to stop.

Firstly, let's cover that "weld" looking bit.  It's disquieting.  That bit doesn't bother me as much as the other problem.  The other problem leaves me with a very unsettled feeling.

The receivers were roll stamped.  Your gun is very weak in the center of the stamp.

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

Your receiver and its nearby neighbor.  The "ield" on 27782 is also very weak.  The weakness of the markings on your receiver in that area catch attention but it's not, as far as I can see, a big deal.  That chip looking thing above Armory just makes the weak stamping more suspicious.  So on that part I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.  Weak stamping on 27782 is consistent with your 27786.

Out of characters per post.  Next post is your first test.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
5MadFarmers
Ex Member


Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #17 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 10:13pm
Print Post  
First thing that needs to be cleared up.  That last character in the serial appears to be an '8' overstamped with the '6'.  Your image is scaled to 640x480 and too grainy to be useful.  We'll either need an unscaled copy of that photo or a better copy taken with a quality camera; no cell phone will generate what is needed. 

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

This is the biggest problem.  We really do need a better photo.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #18 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 12:36am
Print Post  
I said he was good, didn't I?

You see, IF the carbine WERE O'Neill's "as issued" piece, the value would be - who knows? $500K?  More?

Well, it isn't - But, what DO we have? At the very best, McNeill's receiver and a bunch of parts. At the worst, an attempted fake/fraud/whatever. NOT saying you did it. It's a puzzle - the potential gain is WELL worth doing a MUCH MUCH "better" fake, IF that was the assembler's game. Certainly does appear to be a thin-wrist stock - correct for number, but not date.

There is nothing "faint" about the stamping on either side of the "weld". Your gun is in fact better (deeper) stamped than the other, so, what's wrong in the middle? Are there any other signs of possible welding inside or out? Odd location for any sort of sight holes, so perhaps a repair?

Interesting thread - ball is in NMM's court, I guess.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
5MadFarmers
Ex Member


Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #19 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 3:15am
Print Post  
Dick Hosmer wrote on Nov 12th, 2010 at 8:31pm:
I've been collecting longer, and published the first half of a guidebook on trapdoors, but he is doing REAL research on an unprecedented scale.


Dick, 40 years of collecting is real research.  How many people can, off the top of their heads, reel off the serial blocks and variations on those?  Very very few.  That wasn't a "guidebook" either and I hope the next one is also that good.  There is a reason I'm ignoring trapdoors....

I guess the real test is I have never seen anyone harsh your book.  Ever.  Which is a sign.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #20 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 5:37am
Print Post  
Thank you - I take that as high praise from a researcher as thorough as yourself.

The book filled a need - no one had yet combined the many different SA-produced early cartridge models into one compact reference source.

The second one will be a bit more esoteric, and, a somewhat greater percentage of the subject (the rare .45-70 TDs and their cousins) has been covered elsewhere, but I'll have a price-point advantage.

North Cape has suggested marketing a three-part set, with my two wrapping (so to speak) his basic .45-70 work, which really started the ball rolling a number of years ago. I think that has some appeal.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Nucmedman
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 16
Joined: Sep 9th, 2010
Re: 1st US Vol Cavalry Krags
Reply #21 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 3:52pm
Print Post  
Thank you gentlemen both for your replies and inputs.  I will try to take a higher resolution photo of the serial numbers to ascertain if it has been restamped or not.  The stock cartouche is veryfaint, so I will try to photograph the cartouche using under different colors of light to see if anything can be brought out (this was suggested to me by a police officer that does forensics).  As for the receiver, the inside looks perfectly uniform and has no discoloring that would be indicitive of a weld.  I even had a licensed gunsmith look at this also and he verified. 
     I know I keep putting theories in the mix (sorry but it is in my nature being in medicine) but a history professor friend of mine at the local community college had an idea since that O'Neill was a wagoner, some of those guys carried their weapons lying across their laps as they drove their wagons.  The receiver could rub against their belt buckle and with the corrosion associated with the tropical conditions, could make it this way.  Also, there is a faint thumbprint that the picture does not bring out that is etched into the metal.  I will try to take a better picture of this as well.  You have both helped alot and I am grateful.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo