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 10 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics re: wood imprint ? (Read 12996 times)
Mark Sam
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1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics re: wood imprint ?
May 13th, 2012 at 4:23pm
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I'm probably going to get banned from this forum for being a nuisance.  I've posted a second post due to the amount of pics I've added and this is a new issue I just discovered. I've looked this old gun over before and today just see, barely some small box with writing on it?  Also under the stock behind trigger guard I think I see a circle with some letter?  Did all the Krags have some I.D. of the maker on the wood? I've taken a couple more pics and will try to enlarge it so maybe it will make sense to someone. This is turning into a family mystery to me and probably boring you all to death.  I've had this gun for over 40 years and have ignored it until now.  Thanks again.
  
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Mark Sam
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #1 - May 13th, 2012 at 4:34pm
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My apologies, those pics were too large to really see. My bad.  I will now leave you all alone.
  
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JOHN42768
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #2 - May 13th, 2012 at 8:42pm
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MarkSam, The letter in a circle behind the trigger guard is a script  P which is a proof mark. The three letters in the inspection cartouche are J.S.A. for J.S. Adams. It looks like 1894 date under the letters. The letters could also be S.W.P, for Samuel W. Porter. I can't tell for sure from the photo.  John
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #3 - May 13th, 2012 at 8:45pm
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Mark Sam:  The marks on your stock are an inspector's "cartouche" with the Inspector's initials and year of acceptance (probably J.S.A. = J.S. Adams).  The Circle stamp has a stylized 'P' in it for "passed".  Your stock is valuable because it is early and unaltered (ram rod groove not filled and 'flat butt plate').  The "pins or shim" are the remains of an early style magazine cut-off.  Don't mess with the finish of this Krag.  It is an early one and untrained efforts will destroy its value.  Get some Krag Books, at least Joe Poyer's, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine".  You can get this for less than $20.  Early Krag Rifle Rear sight and Early style cut-off come up on eBay for not too much money.  Go slow!  You've had it for 40 years.  Don't ruin it now.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #4 - May 13th, 2012 at 8:47pm
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Mark:  Looks like stylized J.S.A. with 1894 below initials.
  
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Mark Sam
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #5 - May 13th, 2012 at 10:14pm
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I truly appreciate the responses I've received re: my Grandfathers Krag.  It is fun to learn about it.  I've killed many deer/elk and a couple of moose but all with modern rifles.  Now, as I've grown older this old gun that I've held and wondered about for since I was a young boy seems compelling to me.  I want to clean it up and go kill a deer or elk in memory of my Grand-dad.  So thanks. I will follow your advice and buy a book ortwo and study up. Any other info for a "greenie" will be appreciated.  Re: cleaning it up, I'm not going to "refinish or re-blue" it as several have suggested.  I did receive this bit of info about the process, my question for you folks is this the way to get the paint off? and clean in up?  as follows:get a jar of Birchwood Casey  "Tru oil", which is a stock finishing oil that can be found at any of the bigger sporting good stores. I'd then get some 1500 and 1000 grit automotive sand paper (from Napa or Autozone) and gently wet sand the paint spots on the wood with the Tru oil and start with the 1500 grit. With some gentle wet polishing, the paint should soften and come off, and the Tru oil shouldn't change the color of the wood much. On the metal, I'd use a soft cloth and solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner and gently rub the wetted cloth until the paint spots come off. I wouldn't use the sand paper on the metal because it will polish off the patina and leave bright spots on the metal, which won't look good.
  
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5MadFarmers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #6 - May 13th, 2012 at 10:21pm
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Mark Sam wrote on May 13th, 2012 at 10:14pm:
I want to clean it


Don't.  It's a rare gun.  The best advice you will receive is "don't do anything."

Common Krags are a dime a dozen.  If you need to shoot one, acquire another.  That one is an unaltered 1892 and any attempts to "clean" or "restore" it will not do it any good at all.  If you must shoot it, clean the barrel and get a functional check done.  Then shoot it as is.  Paint on the stock and bits of surface rust won't hurt shooting it but cleaning it would be bad.  Very bad.
  
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5MadFarmers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #7 - May 13th, 2012 at 10:30pm
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A bit longer answer.  Regards rifles, and skipping oddities, there are three models of Krag rifles.  Models, and rough numbers made, are as follows:
1892.  24,000
1896.  70,000
1898.  400,000.

As can be seen the 1892s are the least made.  Compounding their smaller numbers is the fact that over 20,000 were altered to 1896 format.  The rifles which missed that alteration are somewhat scarce.  That is what you have.

So, to the good, it's an unaltered 1892.
To the bad, it's been modified.
To the good, it can be restored.
To the bad, it's in weak shape.

Roller coaster ride isn't it?  Think "1966 Ford Mustang Shelby which somebody added wheel flairs and a sunroof too."  The basic rifle remains but it has some issues.

The gun is restorable.  Given the scarcity of that model many collectors would love to have it to restore.  Lots of Krag collectors will never get the chance to own an unaltered 1892 so the chance to restore one is appealing.

Yet you mention "sand paper" and other really awful items in regards that gun.  No attempt to "clean it up" will do it any good at all.  Modern restorations, in all things to include guns and cars, is "minimal restoration."  The days when the items were ripped down to the basics and put back together (over restored) are over.

So I can appreciate the family connection to the gun and it's a good thing.  Keep the gun.  I can also understand wanting to hunt with it.  So do so.  What gets my hair to stand up is the desire to "clean it up."  Ask a coin dealer if you should polish a coin and you'll get the same reaction: DEAR LORD NO!

Make sense?

You have a treasure twice over.  An unaltered 1892 and a family gun.  Keep it.  Appreciate it.  Don't muck with it.
  
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Mark Sam
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #8 - May 14th, 2012 at 1:34am
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Would it mess it up to somehow carefully get the paint drippings off?  And curious, how would a trained Krag restorer "restore" this gun? And when i say clean it up, I meant other than getting the paint off it, to clean inside barrel, get the dust and grime off and oil the bolt, etc.  No blueing or staining.  But the paint drops seem awful.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #9 - May 14th, 2012 at 2:42am
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Mark Sam:  I don't know how much you know about guns and proper dis-assembly & re-assembly.  Do you know how to remove the Bolt from a Krag?  Do you have proper fitting gunsmithing screwdrivers?  From your photos it appears there may be some cracks or splits in the wrist area of your Krag's gun stock (handle with caution).  Arm yourself with knowledge before you bugger everything up.  If you can remove the bolt, clean the barrel from the breech with a one piece stainless steel cleaning rod of adequate length.  Cleaning rod tip should be brass and for .30 cal.  Use .30 cal. bronze brushes and Hoppe's #9 solvent and flannel patches.  If you can take your rifle apart, do so and separate metal parts from wood.  I would clean the Metal parts of surface rust and hardened grease, paint and grime (lightly) by hand with #000 steel wool saturated with Hoppe's.  I would wipe paint spots on wood with old cotton 'T' shirt rags damped with Turpentine or Mineral Spirits (starting with a small trial area in the barrel channel).  I would wipe down larger areas of the stock with a 50/50 mix of Linseed Oil & Turpentine.  I'd finish up by hand rubbing the stock with Linseed Oil.  I might also try Pledge spay furniture polish.  I would use nothing more abrasive on wood than cotton rags or my thumbnail.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #10 - May 14th, 2012 at 2:50am
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Mark Sam:  I'm attaching photos of an early style Krag Cutoff and of an 1892 style Krag rear sight.  You might want to search eBay or gunBroker (Krag) to eventually get examples of these parts.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #11 - May 14th, 2012 at 2:51am
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1892 sight
  
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Mark Sam
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #12 - May 14th, 2012 at 2:36pm
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Mr. CLueless here again.....So, Mad Farmer and Butler:  Is the rear sight on my KRAG the wrong one? and don't I already have a "cutoff"?   The photos on the first posting re: info re: 1894 model number, etc. shows what I have, has my rear sight been replaced with the wrong one?  Geeze I wish I could ask my Grandpa a couple of questions about this gun!  (& also like where is his 45-90 he mentions shooting a mountain lion with in his Diary)
  
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tanker
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #13 - May 14th, 2012 at 3:29pm
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From the previous picture post you have a damaged magazine cut-off and a incorrect '96 rear sight. The correct and serviceable cut-off should look like the one posted above, not like the shaft only one you have depicted in IMG 0015 and 9952 of the previous post. Additionally, your rear sight does not appear to have step graduation on it like the one above, rather, the ladder ramp is smooth all the way like a '96 version.
Your rare old beast can indeed be restored with a handful of parts to a version that were mainly updated through arsenal upgrade. An arsenal upgrade is still a desirable weapon if original, the fact that most were upgraded makes yours very rare indeed and worthy of the cost of proper original parts. Just my observations, others on this site are far more knowledgeable than I.
  
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5MadFarmers
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Re: 1894 30-40 Krag no. 2-pics wood imprint ?
Reply #14 - May 14th, 2012 at 4:56pm
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Mark Sam wrote on May 14th, 2012 at 2:36pm:
Mr. CLueless here again.....


Don't sweat either being clueless or making a lot of posts.  Ignorance isn't a bad thing, I'm ignorant in too many areas to enumerate, as it can be dispelled.  That is part of why boards like these exist.  Which also takes out the worry about too many posts - they're on topic so don't worry about that.


Quote:
Is the rear sight on my KRAG the wrong one?


As I mentioned in the other post:

"I once saw a trapdoor with a Krag sight mounted.  Now I can tally the reverse."

The rear sight on your rifle is the Model of 1879 "Buckhorn."  While appropriate for a Trapdoor it was never used on Krags.  Given most of the Model of 1892 rifles (there is no Model of 1894 US Krag - they're marked "1894" but are Model of 1892s) were altered to 1896 format they received Model of 1896 sights at that time.  This resulted in a lot of no longer needed Model of 1892 sights and they're not hard to find.  Further, given the limited number of unaltered 1892s, they're the most inexpensive Krag sight found.  Yes, it would be good to acquire one as it's not much of an expense.

Quote:
and don't I already have a "cutoff"?


Your rifle is missing the cut-off.  The proper cut-off for that rifle is the "flat spring" edition but those are scarce.  Installing a later "round spring pin" one would be fine.  Note that there are quite a few cut-offs as they changes as they went - you need the 1892 edition.
  
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