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 10 WW1 Photo - bayonet training (Read 8130 times)
Dick Hosmer
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WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Apr 27th, 2014 at 1:43pm
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This showed up this morning as part of a 30 item, "greatest photos" montage.

What is interesting is that (a) the demonstrator is British, and that (b) in 1917, they were still using at least a few un-altered 1892 rifles. While the rod is either missing, or just not visible, everything else checks out.
  
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kragluver
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #1 - Apr 27th, 2014 at 6:32pm
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Supposedly approximately 180,000 Krags were still in US arsenals at the time of WW1. They were pressed into service as training rifles and several thousands (perhaps 10K or so) made it over to France in the hands of AEF personnel (primarily engineers and support personnel). That makes the Krag a valid WW1 rifle:) The French and the Brits both sent hundreds of instructors to the US to help train US recruits for the war.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #2 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 12:44am
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This is an interesting picture and good observations.  I wonder if the 'target' is a British Instructor or U.S. Service personnel?  The shirt with the pleated pockets, back pleats, and elbow patches is probably a clue.  His pants pockets also button down like my Cub Scout pants pockets did.  It would be fun to know if the training is being conducted in the U.S., Great Britain, or Europe.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #3 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 1:50am
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I believe the notation said the picture was taken here in the US, which would fit in with above post, though I still find the use of an unaltered 1892 to be unusual at that point in time.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #4 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 1:45pm
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kragluver wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 6:32pm:
Supposedly approximately 180,000 Krags were still in US arsenals at the time of WW1. They were pressed into service as training rifles and several thousands (perhaps 10K or so) made it over to France in the hands of AEF personnel (primarily engineers and support personnel). That makes the Krag a valid WW1 rifle:)


My 1898 rifle spent 1917-1918 in France.  Cool
  
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DocCasualty
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #5 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 10:41pm
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Dick Hosmer wrote on Apr 28th, 2014 at 1:50am:
I believe the notation said the picture was taken here in the US, which would fit in with above post,

I recently ran across this same pic and it was captioned as Camp Dick, TX.

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though I still find the use of an unaltered 1892 to be unusual at that point in time.

That and the uncertain uniform of the other individual make me wonder if the rifle and this individual were from a National Guard unit.  Given the extreme shortage of rifles as the US began to mobilize for war,  does anybody know if any NG units reported for duty with their rifles?  Only idle speculation on my part but is it possible that some NG unit Krags may not have undergone arsenal improvements that regular Army rifles did when put into storage or along the way?

For me this is a timely thread as I was thinking about starting a "US Krag in WWI" thread.  There has been a Krag bayonet/scabbard listed on eBay recently that is being offered attached to a M1917 ammo belt, supposedly having belonged to a relative of the seller who was in the US Cavalry in WWI.  At first I thought it was odd to see the scabbard attached to such a late-dated belt and started searching on the net on the subject.  I found a few pics that I thought I'd share.

I also ran across some threads from other sites that discussed the training use as well as issue to engineer and other support/non-combat units that carried their Krags to Europe and pics that support that.  US policy was that all troops were sent to Europe with a rifle and due to shortages, it was felt the Krag would suffice for them.  I read of one engineer co. that was involved in a surprise engagement with a German unit early on and it is speculated that they may have been armed with Krags, though I don't know if there is supporting evidence of that.  It would be interesting to know if their was an AAR, unit history or letter home that verified that.  (continued)
  

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DocCasualty
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #6 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 11:20pm
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Given that some US units traded in their rifles for Lebels when in French sectors and similarly SMLEs when assigned to British sectors to simplify logistics, I think there's a wide range of possibilities as to what any unit might have actually been using, especially in these engineering and support cos. early in US involvement in theater.

Bayonet drill; not sure of location.

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Doughboys in London

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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #7 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 11:22pm
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Navy Krags c. WWI

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Interesting photo of doughboy.  Unknown if this was taken in US or Europe though clearly into WWI as he is wearing puttees which I understand the US did not adopt until they realized that canvas leggings were a failure in the trenches.  He appears to be wearing M1917 belt, though the pic makes it a little hard to say for sure.

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I assume they must have been carrying the .30-40 ctgs loose in these ammo belt pouches.  I read that the bandoliers had cardboard inserts but those were factory packaged.  Anybody know?
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #8 - Apr 28th, 2014 at 11:52pm
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DocCasualty:  Thanks for sharing the WW1 pics!  Definitely a time of desperate expedients.  (i.e. Pressing the venerable Krag back into service along with 1905 Ross rifles, American made Mosin-Nagants, and possibly Berthiers for training and support duties).
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kragluver
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #9 - Apr 29th, 2014 at 1:01am
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Bruce Canfield's book US Infantry Weapons in WW1 and several other books I've run across make mention of the US engineer unit engagement with Germans in Nov 1917. I don't know what the original source for this information is. However, given the wealth of photographic evidence, it is clear that Krag's made it overseas.
  
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #10 - May 2nd, 2014 at 12:38am
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Here is how one uses zee bayonet - Rosalie!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #11 - May 2nd, 2014 at 12:45am
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Prepare to repel Boarders.  Form an orb!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2014 at 1:44am
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Occupation of Veracruz, Mexico, in 1914, Navy goes 'Wild Bunch'.  Do you think that's a Colt 'Potato Digger' in the bag off to the left?
  
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #13 - May 2nd, 2014 at 1:55am
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The U.S.S. Montana brought the U.S. Service dead from Veracruz, Mexico, to N.Y. City in May, 1914, for a memorial service.  The Marines from the Montana are bearing 1903 Springfields.
  
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Re: WW1 Photo - bayonet training
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2014 at 10:35pm
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"He appears to be wearing M1917 belt, though the pic makes it a little hard to say for sure.I assume they must have been carrying the .30-40 ctgs loose in these ammo belt pouches.  I read that the bandoliers had cardboard inserts but those were factory packaged.  Anybody know?"

They did.  Great thread posted this week on the US Militaria Forum about bandoleers 1903-1909 and the phase out/overlap of 30-40 and 30-03, 30-06 ammo.

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