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 10 Zero Krags and counting (Read 8027 times)
Brent
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Zero Krags and counting
Jul 8th, 2014 at 8:40pm
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I do not own a Krag, but I have a bit of a hankering for one for reasons that I do not pretend to understand.  I just bought Michael Petrov's old .30-40 Krag dies so I guess the journey has officially begun.  I'm only interested in an early sporterized rifle as opposed to an original military configuration. 

I've been following them on auction sites to try to get a feel for what they are like and what they go for.  And to a degree unlike any other firearm type that I have been interested in, their prices are truly all over the map.  4 figures for hunks of unbelievable junk to rifles that seem quite sound for only a couple hundred dollars. 

So far, the only rifle that has really been at all attractive to me is this one (You need to Login to view media files and links)

It has a lot of features I am looking for, but it is not perfect either (seems to be a short barrel for instance, but I don't really know).  I have watched this rifle roll over many times on Gunbroker and, while the seller came down a small amount, it has still rolled over many times at this opening price. 

This makes me wonder what these rifles are worth.  I would be willing to pay only about 1/2 of what he is asking, but I don't know if I'm living a pipe dream or if that is realistic.   Can anyone provide any guidance? 

What would a Griffin & Howe sporter in about the same condition go for?  Perhaps that is the high end of things, but I need some yardsticks to know what I'm doing.

Thanks for any and all help in leading me almost blindly down this interesting but unknown path.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #1 - Jul 8th, 2014 at 10:30pm
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Hi Brent.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Krags! 

That is a pretty nice looking sporter.  Prices are subjective... and depends on what someone is willing to pay, but $699 may still be a bit steep for a sporter - even a decent one.  Of course, I'm not an expert, and there are others who are far more knowledgeable than I... but I would see If you can get him to drop his price.
  
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reincarnated
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #2 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 12:19am
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Brent,
It depends on what you want in a Krag turned into a hunting rifle.  In my view, that one went way beyond Bubba, missed the turn on the way to one of MP's classics and turned into folk art.  In my view, that makes it worth more than a garden variety Krag sporter.  The seller is correct in thinking that the Pacific rear sight is worth something in itself. 

Attached are 2 scans of some of Ellis Lenz' artwork from Muzzle Flashes.
  
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reincarnated
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #3 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 12:29am
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Back again.  I do not know what the Niedner-Shelhammer Krag we saw referenced here went for. Maybe $2500 to $3000, and that is just a SWAG.  I don't know if there is a custom Krag in MP's collection.  If so, and if it has an MP story, > $2000.  An identifiable & original G&H, maybe in the same ballpark.

I think a nice one with a made-from-scratch good quality stock would be worth a lot more than a military conversion.

If we say a Bubba hack job is worth $150 (parts?) and an OK Bubba job is in the $250-300 range, that gives us some sort of base line.
  
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Brent
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #4 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 1:49am
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The Neidner Shellhammer Krag was way off the charts.  I would love to luck into such a beast for a grand or so, but I know that is not happening. 

But let me show you something in comparison (remembering that I know nothing of what I'm talking about).  Here is a pretty nice Sedgeley that went for a grand, though it rolled over at least 8 times that I saw in Gunbroker and possibly many more before I found it. I was sorely tempted to buy it until some folks convinced me that I really needed a Krag instead.
(You need to Login to view media files and links)
So, a rifle like this, but a Krag is sort of what I'm looking for.  99% of the "sporterized" Krags are nothing like this so I rule them out pretty fast. 

The "folk art" aspect of this Krag is pretty darn interesting to me.  In fact, I have thought about specifically collecting what I would call folk art rifles and have gone far as to have cave paintings (the original folk artists) engraved on one of my high walls.  No one else may like it but I do.  This Krag is not so much the decorative artist part, but rather the incredible skill of someone who must have been an amateur gun maker, but clearly had the skills of a pro, the eye of an artist for proportions, and a whole lot of time on his hands.  I think stocking from a raw log would have been faster than all the work he put into this rifle.  So it attracts me, but I am not sure it pulls me over the hump of $700.  I have considered offering the seller a lower figure but I don't honestly know that would be, or what I would be happy with.  So, I watch.  And maybe I'll get tired of watching and find something else, or maybe I'll take a shot at this one, it is close to what I am looking for. 

Here are some other "comparibles" that are simply ghastly
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Or lacking a sense of proportion and, therefor, uninteresting
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Brent
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #5 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 1:51am
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And here is one more Neidner Krag.  This time the wrong caliber but a heck of a nice rifle that can shoot very well.  I'd be tickled to find something like this, though I have no idea what it would cost me. 
(You need to Login to view media files and links)

Sorry for the long posts, but maybe my rambling will spark an idea or memory with someone here. 

Brent
  
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #6 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 5:09am
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Did you look closely at the checkering on that piece of "folk art"?

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I'm afraid that's neither artistic nor well-executed. Compare to what we see from the masters on those others you've referenced.

Then take a glance at the way this "artist" rounded off the edges of the forestock flutes. Ouch!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #7 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 5:24am
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Taste in 'Sporterized' Krags is very subjective.  Actually the third Gunbroker rifle (listed at $579 in New Mexico) is rather nice - IMHO.
  Any military rifle modified for hunting, be it Krag, Lee-Enfield, 1903 Springfield, Mauser or whatever, you better really like and plan to keep, because few other people will like it and 'resale' is tough.
  Also, Sedgley, and I'm sure other skillful gun shops, also put out some cheap parts guns (like Bannerman and W. Stokes Kirk) to cater to the 'working class masses', who needed an inexpensive tool.
  (attached - 'good Sedgley' and 'poor boy Sedgley'):
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #8 - Jul 9th, 2014 at 6:07pm
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I'll agree with the New Mexico rifle being way better than the OP's first choice.  The PG add-on is way out of balance as well as the checkering being childish in nature. I dislike that one a lot.

Michael chided me once for not staying the course in an auction for what turned out to be a Griffin&Howe rifle that ended up selling for $700. I bailed just shy of that amount because that was the extent of my "gun money account". Had I consulted MP earlier, I would have hocked the silverware and stayed on it 'til I got it. Just proves the good ones are still out there, as this was last year it happened.

Were it me, I would search out a cheap rifle with a decent action/barrel and a throwaway stock. Have a nice classic style sporter stock put on it, and good receiver sight and, Voilą!
  
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Brent
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #9 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 12:42am
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It is great that we all have different ideas of what is desirable. If we didn't, every rifle would look like one of mine Smiley

But I'm curious what people seen in the New Mexico rifle.  The one I like is in Maine, so we can call them the NM and ME rifles for short.  If you didn't like the checkering on the ME rifle, take a close look at the NM rifle.  It is much worse. The left side of the grip is horrible in the lines that run out in the points, the top of the checkered panel, and the overall shape of the panel.  The same comments apply to different degrees on the right side of the grip and what I can see of the points at the rear of the forearm don't look any better. 

But what disappoints me about this stock is the entire, almost shapeless buttsock.  There is too much drop, and not enough taper with converging lines in the piece between buttplate and wrist.  It is a gun w/o sole and no amount of being in better condition can change that. 

Well, anyway, to each his own.  I'm not buying either of them for the opening bids they have on them. 

It would be great if other folks had photos of some of the better quality Krag sporters, Neidners, Sedgeleys, Griffin and Howe, and the talented one-off amateurs especially.

Thanks all for the comments.  I am enjoying learning about these high-tech beasts.  They are so different than the singleshots that I dearly love.
  
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Brent
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #10 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 12:49am
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Here is an example of what I think of as an exquisit folk-art rifle, albeit a lever action and not a singleshot or even a Krag

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

If you look closely it is not perfectly executed but the proportions, the combinations of carvings, and all very well done nonetheless and I find it a beautiful rifle. 

Okay, so now ya'll think I'm crazy.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #11 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 4:15am
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Brent, my mother-in-law used to say:  "It takes all kinds to make a World".
  With all due respect, that Model 1893 Marlin, 'folk art' rifle, is repulsive to me.  I much prefer, like and enjoy, a 'stock' Marlin.
  I like the New Mexico Krag because it kind of has the stock lines of a Model 54 or early Model 70 Winchester.  Those handle well for me and the workmanship of the NM Krag did not look that heinous in the photos.  However, I would not invest $600 in such a rifle.
  I prefer Krags as issued.  That said, I do have a soft spot in my heart for the 'poor boy' Depression Era Krag rifles that were 'sporterized' to put meat on the table.  They have a certain unpretentious dignity and are fun to shoot.
« Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2014 at 1:22pm by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #12 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 4:38am
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These are old pictures of a 'sporter', I once contemplated bidding on, at Gunbroker.  It needed some finishing and removal of that ventilated butt pad.  It was priced and sold for too much in my mind.  However, for me, there is something compelling about the basic lines.  (I fully realize others may hate it).

  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #13 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 5:06am
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Some like more 'bells and whistles'!
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Zero Krags and counting
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 11:16am
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That looks to me like Ralphie's "Red Ryder Carbine Action" gun, complete with a "Compass in the stock and this thing which tells time!"  LOL

FWIW, I purchased my first Krag, a Bubba sporter, in 1984 for $175.  It had a Redfield 102K rear sight that I removed.  I added the Kraghaus sight rail and scout scope for Bench Rest Cast Bullet matches.  I love this gun... It's a joy to shoot!

  
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