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krag carbine (Read 16064 times)

butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: krag carbine Reply #15 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 6:13am	Print Post
	IMHO:� This 1902 sight is a fake combination of parts. � I believe it is a model 1902 top (rod/bayonet 1903 Springfield leaf, actually) on an model 1898 rifle sight base.� (The elevation ramps are too high for a carbine sight).� The "C" stamps are incorrect and show disruption of metal.� (They have been added after finish).� There should only be a "C" on the side of the base.� The model 1902 carbine sight does not have a "C" on the eye-piece.� Only 1,000 model 1902 carbine sights were made. It does appear to be an 1899 'long forearm' carbine stock.� These were used on 1899 carbines and as replacements on model 1898 carbines that were 'updated' to 1899 carbine configuration. � The barrel band appears to be an 1899 carbine band, but, it is on backwards.� A "U" should be visible on the right side of the band to assist correct assembly. � The Model 1898 carbine is one of the most faked Krags, since, only 5,000 were made.� It is always important to see a clear picture of the muzzle/front sight area to verify a real carbine barrel. � With that fake rear sight, I'd run away from this one! I don't like that front sight screw either.


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kw64 KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 38 Location: Vaughn Joined: Feb 9^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #16 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 6:27am	Print Post
	Were the "c" markings ever faked? Please tell me more about what you do not like. thanks


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: krag carbine Reply #17 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 6:45am	Print Post
	Krag carbine sights were stamped before final finishing and browning (bluing).� Marking ("C") should be clean with no disruption of metal. � Here is a picture of a real model 1902 carbine sight.� There is only one "C".� (This sight does have the 1903 style of elevation knob, a common repair).:


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Dick Hosmer KCA Official Member Offline Collector of Springfield Arms, 1865-1915 Posts: 1862 Location: Northern California Joined: Nov 20^th, 2005 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #18 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 3:07pm	Print Post
	Admittedly a small point, but ditto on the screw. Also, compare the shape of the curvature of the ramps. That sight has been ground down from a rifle one. As to whether carbines are ever faked, the answer, sadly, is a resounding "yes".


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kw64 KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 38 Location: Vaughn Joined: Feb 9^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #19 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 9:41pm	Print Post
	One sellar stated that 03 rear sights were frequently added to Krags when they went through an armory refit. Is there any truth to that?


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: krag carbine Reply #20 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:22pm	Print Post
	I don't think the bogus carbine sight had the base 'ramp curvature' ground down. Someone has simply put a 1902 (rod bayonet 1903) sight leaf on a model 1898 rifle sight base (and put two fake 'c' stamps on it). This was not done by Springfield Armory. The model 1898 sights were for a higher velocity .30-40 cartridge that proved too 'hot' for the Krag. The model 1898 sights were taken out of service. The leafs had the eye piece re-contoured and were used on model 1902 bases and are a variant of the model 1902 sight. The 1898 bases have the wrong curvature for the standard .30-40 cartridge. I imagine the bases were put aside as scrap. (p.s. The early 'rod-bayonet' Springfield sights had a short career and were replaced with the 1905 sights. The 1903 leafs and locking knobs show up on Krag model 1902 rear sights that probably required arsenal repair. These minor parts were interchangeable). 1. Photo showing an 1898 rifle sight base with a 1902 leaf. (I put this together to salvage parts on a 'cut-down shooter'). 2. It appears to match the bogus carbine sight 'kw64' inquired about.


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kw64 KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 38 Location: Vaughn Joined: Feb 9^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #21 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:42pm	Print Post
	so are you saying the sight on this 98 carbine could have been a result of armory work, but the "c" is definitely not armory work? Do I have that right? I have a hard time seeing much difference between the sight you posted and the photo from the (supposedly) 98 carbine. thanks


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: krag carbine Reply #22 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:01pm	Print Post
	I'm saying the sight you posted was made in someone's basement.� (Not Springfield's).� It is not right. - IMHO 1.� Too many 'c's 2.� Bare disrupted metal around stamped 'c'. 3.� 'Curved ramp' of rear-sight base is too tall.� (On a 1902 carbine sight, the top of the 'curved ramp' is almost level with the graduated face of the sight-leaf, when leaf is in lowest position).
	« Last Edit: Mar 5^th, 2015 at 12:07am by butlersrangers »

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Dick Hosmer KCA Official Member Offline Collector of Springfield Arms, 1865-1915 Posts: 1862 Location: Northern California Joined: Nov 20^th, 2005 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #23 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:37pm	Print Post
	I concur with Butlersrangers in all regards. The gun is NOT right, and no amount of wishing so, or arguing, will make it true. When I said it was a "possible" (simply because it falls into the accepted range for 1898 Carbines) I had not yet seen the cut-down stock, wrong front sight, and "funny" rear sight. While the receiver MAY have once been on a carbine (and no one can say for sure about that) the rest of the gun is a hump job by an ignorant person who was looking to score some extra bucks. This whole scenario perfectly illustrates my long-held conviction that novice Krag collectors should stay away from "1898 Carbines", period. That model is a minefield, way too easy to fake, even badly like the seller of this one, who did not even bother to use a carbine stock.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: krag carbine Reply #24 - Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:59pm	Print Post
	'kw64' / Ken: The water has gotten a bit muddy because you introduced a second Krag in this thread. Details of the two Krags have gotten blurred together. I don't think we have ever seen the Muzzle Area of this 2nd Krag. I also get the sense that a 'Seller' is trying to persuade you a likely fake is real.


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kw64 KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 38 Location: Vaughn Joined: Feb 9^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: krag carbine Reply #25 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 1:53am	Print Post
	I have a feeling I should stick to an 1899 since there is alot less fakery going on there. Having said that I have seen a few odd looking 99's too. There is a learning curve here and I am definitely on the beginning of it! thank you all.


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