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 25 What's going on with this brass? (Read 15566 times)
Texas10
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What's going on with this brass?
Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:05pm
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Shot my Krag for first time in decades using Remington and Winchester ammo. Case looks like nothing I've seen before. Almost Ackley improved, or bad chamber ream job. Primers are backing out about .015 too.

I'll post more pictures.

Can I expect these to resize properly or are they too deformed?
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #1 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:06pm
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Here's view of the heads.
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #2 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:07pm
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Head to shoulder measurement, new Remington 30-40
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #3 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:08pm
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This is once fired measurement.
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #4 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm
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I have a set of Lee dies coming and would like to do some reloading. I have about 100 rounds of NIB ammo I've collected recently at gun shows or off the shelf when I see it.

Any suggestions as to what I can expect while reloading would be greatly appreciated.  Smiley
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #5 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 10:24pm
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The .30-40 Krag cartridge 'head-spaces' on its rim. It is normal in necked-rimmed cartridges, like the .30-40 Krag (and even more so with the .303 British), for the factory cartridge case shoulder to 'move forward' and form to the chamber. Your fired cases don't look that unusual to me.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, when you reload your .30-40 brass, back off the F.L. Sizing Die, a turn or two, and neck-size only. There is no point generally in F.L. resizing .30-40 brass if used in one rifle.

It is possible that the 'gun-smith' who 'Sporterized' your Krag followed an old practice of lapping its locking-lug so that the rear of the bolt guide rib now makes contact with the receiver, when the bolt is closed.

This practice was believed at the time to strengthen the action. (As built by Springfield, the bolt guide rib has a few thousandths clearance at the rear).

The practice of lapping the Krag bolt lug for this contact increased 'head-space' by a few thousandths. (Unissued replacement bolts are available for $55 on ebay and will tighten up 'head-space').

Testing the bolt fit in the receiver requires just using the bolt (with out striker assembly). 
  
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Parashooter
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #6 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 12:27am
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Texas10 wrote on Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:06pm:
Here's view of the heads.
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I suspect you're misinterpreting the difference in surface texture between the portion of the case that has expanded to contact the chamber and the solid head that doesn't expand to contact. This is completely normal and benign.

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This visual effect should not be confused with the thin "bright ring" indicating the case wall has stretched somewhere ahead of the web/wall junction.

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Incipient head separations (and a USGI extractor at right).
  
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #7 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 11:06am
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+1 on both Chuck's and Para's assessment.  All of my brass looks pretty much like yours, and I've reloaded and fired most of my brass in excess of ten times (some closer to 20 loadings).  The biggest problem I'm starting to see is necks cracking and splitting now.  Also, don't confuse a primer that looks like it contacted metal with one that is truly backed out and flattened.  My primers routinely look like they've been hit with a rough faced hammer... but never flatten.  I suspect that this is because my headspace is nice and tight, and the minor pressure that my primers see moves them a hair until they contact the bolt face.

When you start reloading, anneal the necks and shoulders of your brass (heat the neck and shoulder of the brass until the color changes slightly and then allow it to cool).  This will help the brass to stay a little more malleable, and extend the life considerably.  Also, as Chuck mentioned, back your sizing die out 1 turn or more so that you're only neck sizing.  Finally, never exceed established load manual pressures.  I usually stay right about in the middle of the road.  Your Krag should provide another hundred years or more of good clean fun!
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #8 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 11:26am
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Thank you Butlersranger for schooling me on the differences of a rimmed cartridge vs. a rimless. I was loving the way it was shooting, but hating what I was seeing after ejecting the brass. I did notice the bolt rib to reciever contact you mentioned, so you're probably right about what the "funsmith" did to the bolt. BTW: That's a great picture you provided. Thanks for taking the time to do that.
I did check Ebay after your post and found plenty of Krag bolts on the market. Something to consider.
I prefer neck sizing only when loading for my bolt guns, and the lee dies I have for my 223 include a neck size only die, so I am hoping the Krag set will also include one. If not, I'll do as you suggest.

Thanks again for sharing your valuable experience.
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #9 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 11:33am
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Parashooter, you're right about the head markings. About the time you were writing, I was re-measuring and found that case had expanded forward of the case-web junction just as you mention. So feeling better about that now.
The fired cases did stretch about 15 thou. as measured base to mouth, so trimming may be in order before I reload. With only neck sizing, I may have to do this only once.

BTW: GREAT pics!


Thanks for your timely advise. I feel much better now about shooting my antique. Wink
  
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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #10 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 11:45am
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Psteinmayer, I appreciate you're taking the time to write. I am seeing my primers are backed out 10-15 thou. They don't look particularly flatted, just backed out. Not sure what to make of that. There does not appear to be a crimp mark on the heads so they must have thought it not necessary. Maybe that is a requirement only for ammo shot from semi-autos.

Could this be due in part  the result of my not cleaning all the oil out of the chamber and the brass not gripping the chamber wall enough? Not sure of the mechanics of a rimmed cartridge when it comes to primers backing out.

  
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Parashooter
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Headspace basics
Reply #11 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 1:37pm
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Several generations of American shooters have been convinced by bad information that something called "headspace" should be checked and re-checked on almost any vintage rifle. The truth is less interesting but still worth knowing.

Stripped to its essentials, with a rimmed cartridge like the .30/40, headspace is simply the distance between the face of the bolt and the back of the barrel. It's the space where the "head" (rim) of the cartridge fits when the rifle is loaded.

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Since there has to be some room to allow for varying rim thickness, the headspace is normally a bit more than necessary - giving what we call "end play" or "head clearance", a little extra space so the bolt can close easily, even on the thickest rim allowed.

When a full-power cartridge is fired, a whole string of events occurs.

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1. The firing pin shoves the case forward, rim against the breech.
2. The primer detonates. If it's not heavily crimped in place, it backs out, shoving the bolt and barrel as far apart as it can.
3. The thin, forward part of the case expands to fill and grip the chamber while the bullet moves out of the case and down the barrel.
4. The solid case head can't expand and grip the chamber, so it moves rearward, re-seating the primer, stretching the case walls just forward of the head, and stopping when it hits the bolt face. (If pressure is low, primers may be left protruding.)
5. If (and only if) the amount of head movement exceeds the elastic limits of the case, the cartridge separates into two pieces.

New cartridge cases can normally stretch a lot before breaking. Even with a minimum rim .054" thick and maximum "field" headspace of .074", the resultant .020" end play is well within the limits of new brass and it's very unlikely a new case will separate even if the headspace is somewhat more than the field maximum (which is pretty rare, especially in Krags.)
  
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Parashooter
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Headspace basics, continued
Reply #12 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 1:42pm
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OK, but if one does separate we're in deep trouble, right? Not really. It seems the short "cup" left behind the break is pretty good at keeping most of the gas where it belongs. Here's a quote from Hatcher's Notebook -

". . . With good strong actions and moderate pressure loads, and especially if the shooting glasses are worn, this trouble is not particularly dangerous, but is annoying and inconvenient. Very little, if any, gas escapes to the rear, because the back end of the cartridge, which remains in the chamber, acts as a seal. In fact, it is just such short brass cups that the Germans have for years used as the breech seals in their heavy artillery . . .

"Our riflemen are used to measuring the headspace of their rifles by thousandths, and are prone to become very much alarmed if the headspace gauges two or three thousandths of an inch more than the normal maximum. This is a good safe attitude to take, but it is something like measuring cordwood with a micrometer. . ."

If you handload for a US Krag with generous headspace, there's no need to mess with bolt swapping - changing the rifle's clearances to yield longer case life. You can control cartridge end play simply by changing technique.

When you fire a new case for the first time, use an improvised spacer ahead of the rim - anything from a precision metal washer to dental floss can work to hold the the cartridge head firmly against the bolt face and eliminate or reduce stretch even if head clearance is significant. Such techniques are useful only if the rifle has excess headspace. With normal headspace, initial stretch isn't enough to worry about.

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After you've fire-formed your new cases they will fill the chamber fully, stopping on the shoulder just like a rimless cartridge. If you neck size, you'll have zero "headspace". If you have to full length size, adjust the die so the cases chamber with just a bit of resistance in the last few degrees of bolt rotation. Cases fitted this way and fired with moderate loads can last for dozens of loading cycles.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #13 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 2:12pm
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See more of the same at (You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #14 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 2:25pm
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'Parashooter': As always - Great explanations and graphics! Thanks.

P.S. - IIRC - A primer projecting to the rear that has maintained its rounded corners ('cup-shape' and not flattened), can be a sign of low pressure in rounds. On Firing, the primer was pushed back to take up 'free play', but, there was not enough pressure to stretch the cartridge case and force the case-head rearward against the bolt face (which would have re-seated the fired primer).

IMHO - If there is no evidence of gas leaking from or stretching primer pockets and cartridge cases are not separating, the brass is doing its job. Use the cases as fire-formed. Just trim brass as needed and Neck-Size.
  
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