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 25 What's going on with this brass? (Read 15565 times)
luvmy40
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #15 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 3:16pm
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Texas10 wrote on Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm:
I have a set of Lee dies coming and would like to do some reloading. I have about 100 rounds of NIB ammo I've collected recently at gun shows or off the shelf when I see it.

Any suggestions as to what I can expect while reloading would be greatly appreciated.  Smiley


The Lee set does not come with a neck sizer. They(Lee)don't make a neck sizer for the 30-40 as a stock item. I assume they will custom make a die to your specs but you can get a bushing neck sizer die from HC-4D (You need to Login to view media files and links)

Though as others have said, I get good results just backing the full length die off a bit.
  

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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #16 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 5:35pm
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Fantastic explanation, Parashooter. Best I've ever seen! And the graphics were extraordinarily well done. Thank you, thank you, thank you! The rimmed case headspace is rarely explained in detail in modern manuals. My 1949 Lee manual is better, but still...

Of the ten rounds I shot this week, 5 Remington, 5 Winchester, all ejected with primers backed out about ten thou or so, and all were flattened except the 4 Rems that I reduced the load by 3 gr. Those still had nice rounded edges.
Both the Rem and Win are loaded to full case and at least slightly compressed loads.

I am planning to hand load my neck sized only brass per Hornaday manual using 3031 or 4320 which I have in stock, and 150 gr. v-max, but not sure if I should use magnum primers.

Now, I don't want anyone to stick their necks out un-necessarily, but I would like to ask for some advice..

As I wrote above, I did reduce the loads of the first four rounds I fired, AGAINST THE ADVICE I was offered, and I wanted to explain that.

I've been hand loading for only about a year, but I've been doing it with a lot of research done beforehand, logging everything, keeping targets, x-cell spreadsheets, etc. Trying to be scientific about it and not just hap-hazard.

I've hand loaded about 2000 rounds to date and have achieved some ridiculously small groups out of my 223, which, as you probably know, is perhaps the easiest round to load.

So my question is, was I taking a big risk in reducing loads by 3 grams (typo, that should be grains) and assuming it was safe to shoot?

The results were as I expected, but perhaps that was pure luck, so feel free to ream me if I screwed the pooch on that. Might help to keep me safe and around longer so I can pester you mercilessly with more questions. Grin
« Last Edit: Aug 13th, 2015 at 10:20pm by Texas10 »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #17 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 9:39pm
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'Texas10': I think you meant to say reduced powder weight by three Grains (not Grams).

In regard to safety, I don't rightly know. I do not know what propellant was used in the old Factory Loads, that you reduced.

From what I have read over the years, DETONATIONS occur with reduced loads of slow burning powders.

IMHO - A safer course for you, would have been to dump the original powder charge, instead of reducing it, and replace it with a starting load of a known propellant, like IMR-3031, IMR-4064, or IMR-4895.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #18 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 9:57pm
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Texas10 wrote on Aug 13th, 2015 at 5:35pm:
So my question is, was I taking a big risk in reducing loads by 3 grams and assuming it was safe to shoot?

If you reduce a typical .30/40 load by 3 grams (46.3 grains), you'll have no powder in the case. Be sure not to confuse grams and grains. Different systems.

You'll continue to see protruding primers until you put in enough powder to expand the case fully. With 150-grain bullets, that may require about 40 grains of 3031. Once the case is expanded to fit, neck or partial FL sizing can maintain minimal cartridge end play, eliminating primer protrusion even with lighter loads.
  
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Keith Herrington
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #19 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 10:03pm
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Texas10 wrote on Aug 12th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
This is once fired measurement.


Your measurement is .002" shorter than what my fired brass measures.  Pretty darn close.  Now measure neck dia., shoulder dia. and dia. at the gas ring (near the rim where the texture of the brass changes on a fired case).  Post measurements so we can compare to ours.
Keith
  

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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #20 - Aug 13th, 2015 at 10:34pm
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I grabbed 3 of the Winchester brass. The necks measured .340 at the mouth, .423 to .424 at the shoulder, and .455 about .200 above the rim.

And yes, that grams reference was a typo. Should be grains.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #21 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 10:59am
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As far as I know, if they were factory loads, they should have already been loaded to safe levels for use in a Krag.  Remington and Winchester ammo has always been manufactured to acceptable velocities and pressures.  I would shoot any remaining factory rounds as-is. 

Another handy tidbit for reloading:  If you're concerned about your primers moving, use some primer sealant.  I loaded some Italian Ordnance 10.4 mm brass that was converted Berdan primed.  This very rare round has no current production ammo or brass... so I converted old (but good condition) Berdan cases to accept Boxer primers.  The primers were slightly looser than they would have been had the cases originally been Boxer.  I used good primer sealant, and since this was an old Italian revolver with very tight headspace, I was confident they would be safe... and I was right - the sealant really did the trick and the primers never moved!  I now use primer sealant on all of my rifle ammo, Krags included.
  
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RichWIS
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #22 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 12:53pm
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I believe Hornady makes a sort of universal 30 cal neck sizing die.  The die is available from most suppliers(if in stock).  If you have a 308 Win die you can use that, Install die with about a 1/4 inch clearance from the shell holder and run a case into it.  You will see an obvious line where it stopped sizing the neck.  Adjust until sizing stops at the juncture of neck and shoulder.  A FL die works, the 308 case is fatter and will not contact the sides of the case.  Backing out your FL die until it just sizes the neck will work also.  The advice about annealing is spot on, it is easy to do and will extend case life, an issue since as you have found brass for a Krag is not easy to come by.
  
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Keith Herrington
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #23 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 1:48pm
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Texas10 wrote on Aug 13th, 2015 at 10:34pm:
I grabbed 3 of the Winchester brass. The necks measured .340 at the mouth, .423 to .424 at the shoulder, and .455 about .200 above the rim.

And yes, that grams reference was a typo. Should be grains.  Roll Eyes


My measurements are as follows:

Fired Brass
Neck dia.    .340"
Length at Shoulder using .375" collet    1.784"
Shoulder dia.   .422"
Gasring dia.    .456"

Sized brass using my Hornady sizing die modified to take an Redding Neck Bushing (.333")
Neck dia.  .333"
Length at Shoulder using .375" collet    1.780" (could set it tighter if needed)
Shoulder dia.   .419"
Gasring dia.    .453"

Bottom line:  your measurements are spot on.  If you want a sizing die modified as mine, let me know.
keith.herrington@aol.com
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #24 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 3:12pm
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'RichWIS' - gave a good suggestion about using a .308 Winchester F.L. Sizing Die to Neck-Size .30-40 Brass.

Keith - confirmed your fired Brass is dimensionally typical for 'once fired Krag brass'.

The .30-40 Case Neck is quite long. It is not necessary to Re-size the entire case-neck, especially if reloading 130 to 165 grain bullets. With lighter projectiles, you may have to seat bullets Out, as far as practical, to have your reloads feed through the Krag action.

I am not a 'Precision Bench Rest Shooter' (BR does not appeal to me). I am a Military Match shooter. I have gotten good results from my Krags using Standard Dies, Neck-Sizing, using 'starting loads' of IMR-3031 & IMR-4895 with 180 grain and lighter jacketed spitzer projectiles (to keep pressures low), and standard large rifle primers (Winchester).

The .30-40 U.S. Army has been around a long time and is fun, accurate and easy to reload. There is a wealth of Data on this cartridge.
  
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Keith Herrington
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #25 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 8:59pm
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butlersrangers wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 3:12pm:
I am not a 'Precision Bench Rest Shooter' (BR does not appeal to me). I am a Military Match shooter. I have gotten good results from my Krags using Standard Dies, Neck-Sizing, using 'starting loads' of IMR-3031 & IMR-4895 with 180 grain and lighter jacketed spitzer projectiles (to keep pressures low), and standard large rifle primers (Winchester).


Quite understand your comment.  My efforts to get the "perfect" sizing die revolves more around reducing runout than anything else.  However, I've not only done that but gotten superb dimensionality as well.  I don't really know how much "accuracy" I'm gaining from my efforts, but by nature I'm a precision rifle shooter and reloader.  I shoot better knowing that my ammo it the best I can produce.  Spending a few bucks on these dies was money well spent in my opinion, and easy to do if anyone else is interested.
  

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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #26 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 10:23pm
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I applaud your efforts Keith.  I'm sure you'll knock us all dead at Perry next year.

For me, it's more about the fun of loading and shooting in the matches.  The Krag has been around for over a hundred years... and shooters have been successfully reloading, taking record game, and winning matches ever since... and doing it using simple tools and equipment to load, so I'm going to keep that tradition alive.  I use a standard Lee FL sizing die backed out 1 full turn to neck size.  I load 220 gr Hornady RN bullets over 40.0 grains of IMR-4350 and a CCI 250 Magnum primer, and I do alright with it... for me anyways!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #27 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 10:27pm
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Keith - I'm not knocking the persuit of perfection. As you state, there are different valid approaches to Reloading and not every minor variable effects accuracy at the target. Keeping it fun is important.

One old extra-step I use: 1. Start the bullet slightly into the case-mouth with the Seating Die. 2. Back-off the Die and rotate the case about 90 degrees in the shell-holder. Seat the projectile to about half its seating depth. 3. Back-off the Seating-Die pressure. Rotate the case another 90 degrees and then complete the bullet seating stroke.

I do this quickly & automatically, and it improves bullet concentricity with the cartridge case.
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:03am by butlersrangers »  
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Keith Herrington
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #28 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 9:58am
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Yup, I've tried that method in regular seating dies and you can get good results.  But my consistency using that method was never as good as I wanted it.  Now that I've got case runout down to below .002", the runout of my loaded rounds rarely exceed .004".  When they do I just set them aside for practice.  Something to remember.  The newer the brass, the less all this seems to matter.  But I'm now on my second loading.  As time goes on and I use these 500 cases over and over again, I think (I hope) these steps I take will be increasingly worthwhile.  But, only time will tell.  In any case, I've had a ton of fun "solving" this problem.
  

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Texas10
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Re: What's going on with this brass?
Reply #29 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 10:27pm
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Lot's of great information guys, it'll take a while to sink in as i try different approaches. I bought a set of lee FL sizing dies and will try the neck only approach for now, just because that is what I do for my 223 brass.

I'll start trying some hand loads in the next few weeks and let you know how it goes. Still have not decided on a bullet/powder combination to start with.

BTW: is that H4350?

Thanks again for all the help. This should be a lot of fun!
  
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