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 25 Loading for my M1898 Krag (Read 13317 times)
1stazmilitia
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Loading for my M1898 Krag
Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:02am
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gentlemen,
I have just aquired two(2) Krag's.  One is an absolutely beautiful 1898 rifle ,and the other is nearly the same but it's a cut down rifle in an outstanding M1899 carbine stock.  Now I also got eight hundred (800) rnds. of new WW ammo with the 220 grain round nose bullets.  What more can one as for?  I want to start reloading ASAP.  first off I want to try to duplicate the original round from Frankford Arsenal using a 220 grain round nose bullet.  I have ample stock of IMR 4064.  How many grains will it take to give me around 2000 fps?.
Your assistance would be much appreciated.

1stazmilitia
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 11:39am
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Howdy... and welcome!!!  Watch out - Krags are addicting!!!

Ok, first, congrats on your Krags. 

Now, loading to replicate the original Krag round is relatively easy.  However, I'm not sure you want to use 4064 to do this, as it is a faster burning powder more suited to 180 grain bullets or less (I use 4064 in my 30-06 rounds with a 150 gr FMJBT, and in my 7.7X58 Jap rounds with a 174 gr FMJBT).  To replicate the Krag round, the closest you can get is a 220 grain RN (I use Hornady) over 40.0 grains of 4350.  4350 is about as close as you can get to the original Laflin & Rand .30 caliber powder that the Frankford Arsenal used in all of the ammo at the time.  I use IMR-4350, but H-4350 or Accurate 4350 should give identical results.  If you still want to use 4064, then consult a good loading manual, like Hornady or Lyman, and then use sound judgment.  4064 IS listed under 220 grain in the Hornady 9th edition, but is not the preferred powder.

I also use a CCI-250 Magnum primer.  There is some discussion whether a magnum primer is necessary, but I started using them because there was talk of the 4350 not burning completely using a standard primer, so I started using the magnum and I've been happy with the results.  Also, remember that the military primers used over the years have historically been hotter than a standard, so there's that too.

The final advice I can give you is to be very careful trying to hit a certain velocity or ballistic with your Krags.  You need to make sure you keep things under 40,000 CUP or you risk cracking your locking lug... or worse!!!  The standard Krag round (220 gr RN, 40.0 grains of powder [4350 or Laflin & Rand]) should attain right around 1900-1950 FPS, which is plenty fast when slinging that big ole hunk of 220 grain lead!

Happy loading and shooting
Paul
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:59pm
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Sierra's manual confirms that 4064 is just fine for .30/40 220-grain loads, giving similar velocity at acceptable pressure with lighter charges. Here's some of their data (from a 22" barrel) -

.308 220 gr. RN
Cartridge OAL: 3.000"

Vel. fps.     1800      1900      2000      2100            
IMR-4064      34.3      36.0      37.7      39.5      
IMR-4350      38.2      40.2      42.3      44.4

Standard primers should be OK for 4064. It's not hard to ignite.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 10:33pm
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Also, In the Lyman 49th Edition:

IMR-4064  Starting - 35.5 gr = 1910 fps
IMR-4064  MAX      - 39.5 gr = 2120 fps (39,000 CUP)

In the Hornady 9th Edition:

IMR-4064  Starting - 29.3 gr = 1600 fps
IMR-4064  MAX      - 34.4 gr = 1900 fps

As you can see...  Loads vary from manual to manual. 

For what it's worth, you can take pretty much anything Para says to the bank!  My earlier post is more about replicating the original Krag load.  If that is what you want to do, then as I said before... 40.0 grains of 4350 and you're good to go.
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #4 - Apr 13th, 2016 at 12:16am
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In his "Pet Loads" book (collected reloading articles), Ken Waters wrote about loading the Krag cartridge and rifle.  He said something like "There is no reason to try for every last fps.  These are old rifles not suited for our modern loads".  Just because the cartridge case has the capacity and some of the loading manuals say that you can develop hotter loads does not mean that it is a good idea.

It is easier today to crack a bolt lug than it was in 1899.  I've done it.  A new jar of 4350 is cheaper than a replacement bolt body. 40.0 grains is a safe load.
  
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1stazmilitia
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 1:14am
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Gentlemen,
Your response to my question has been very gratifying to me, and I have down loaded all of your responses. There is only one gun shop in my area, the rest are nearly a hundred miles, so powder is somewhat difficult to obtain.
I don't know if I should start a new question, but since I have you attention here goes.  On both of my new Krags, I noticed that the magazine boxes on both guns are quite difficult to open.  Is it because there were used very little?  The chamber one both show almost no use.  Bright bluing.
Your comments would again be much appreciated.

1azmilitia
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 2:46am
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'1stazmilitia' - The Krag magazine-gate will normally take a fair amount of effort to open, due to spring pressure.

Rust, dirt, and old dried out grease will increase the effort.

You may need to clean the magazine parts and 'hinge' of old hardened lubricant.

A light lubrication of the 'hinge' parts, magazine-gate follower spring, and bearing surfaces should lessen required effort.
  
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Annapolis
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 3:05am
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Folks  -- This is my maiden post on KCA. And while it may seem therefore impertinent for a new guy on the block to offer an opinion, I thought it may offer another perspective on reloading.

My "center of gravity" is black powder cartridge shooting  --  Snider-Enfield's, Martini-Henry's, 50-70's, 45-70's etc  --.  So reloading is a necessity.  While black powder is very forgiving, old wood is not uniformly robust.  The jolt of a service charge on a dry stock is unpredictable.  Some can take it; some not.  It's very hard to predict.  Small, cracks along grain lines can open.  In-letting chips. And worse.   For me, caution recommends light loads.  But, not to worry, with age-induced poor eyesight, I find lighter loads work perfectly at my 100 yard limit!

This leads to a question.  Here, in the reloading section,  I embarrass myself.  I'm shooting my Krag rifle (1896, near mint).  Not having tooled-up as yet to make cartridges, I bought a box of the Remington 30-40 180 gr. "Core-Lokt" ammunition.  I must ask, is this ammunition in a safe enough range not to stress my Krag?  What are the characteristics/ballistics of the Remington load?  How close does it get to the red line 4,000 CUP?   

That's a number of questions rolled in one post; but HELP!

Annapolis

  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 3:50am
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Remington is a SAAMI participant and therefore loads .30-40 ammo no higher than the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure of 40,000 C.U.P., a safe level for any U.S. Krag in sound condition. Each production lot is lab tested to ensure compliance with industry standards.

See the Remington website for listed velocity  (24" barrel) -

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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 11:25am
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Fear not...  as usual, Para is right on top of things!  For most of us, Remington or Winchester factory ammo, loaded with a 180 grain spitzer bullet is what we started with.  Safe and relatively accurate! 

Make sure you save your brass, as 30-40 brass is getting extremely hard to find, and both Remington and Winchester are no longer making it for sale.

  
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1stazmilitia
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 10:44pm
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Butlersrangers,
Thanks for the tip.  Three drops of whale oil, and it loosened up just fine.  Now if the weather would only cooperate I'll take her out for a romp.

1stazmilitia.
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #11 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 11:41pm
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Folks:  thank you for your help. I rest easy with the Remington ammunition for the first generation of shooting. 

Now, let me ask 2 reloading questions from whomever may help. 

1.  The Remington 30-40  220 gr  bullets that I see commercially available on-line, e.g. the Hornady, are all soft point.  Are there jacketed non-soft round nose  point bullets available, being more in form with the originals?  Who makes make them?

2.  I understand now that the Remington 180gr rounds are within the safe tolerance of my '96 Krag and will go to the range with them to harvest brass.  That being understood, I am nevertheless interested in shooting a reduced load that will be satisfactory at the 100 yard range.  I would ask for suggestions on the powder load  -- the brand of powder, type of powder and possible load  -- even if it is not likely to offer match accuracy. 

Thanks.    Annapolis



  
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1stazmilitia
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #12 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 2:52am
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Annapolis,
Well since we are both riding my mule, may I respectfully call your attention to the information offered at the beginning of my request for assistance.  It satisfied my questions, and it should also be of help to you.
Good luck.

-1stazmilitia
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #13 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 3:32am
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I have always gotten very good accuracy with Remington 180 grain 'factory ammo' in my Krags. Don't look at this ammo as just a 'donor' for Brass. It may become your favorite loading!

I have also gotten fine performance with reloads using 165 grain spitzers.

Lighter projectiles are a good way to keep pressures down and lessen recoil.

Cast bullets also open a whole world of accurate and lower cost shooting.

There are many options if your main objective is accurate ammo for 100 yard targets.

IMHO - 220 grain projectiles are for rather specialized shooting.  Other choices may better meet a lot of shooter's needs.
  
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Re: Loading for my M1898 Krag
Reply #14 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 12:23pm
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Annapolis wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 11:41pm:
1.  The Remington 30-40  220 gr  bullets that I see commercially available on-line, e.g. the Hornady, are all soft point.  Are there jacketed non-soft round nose  point bullets available, being more in form with the originals?  Who makes make them?

2.  I understand now that the Remington 180gr rounds are within the safe tolerance of my '96 Krag and will go to the range with them to harvest brass.  That being understood, I am nevertheless interested in shooting a reduced load that will be satisfactory at the 100 yard range.  I would ask for suggestions on the powder load  -- the brand of powder, type of powder and possible load  -- even if it is not likely to offer match accuracy.


Hornady USED to make a 220 gr FMJ bullet that almost matched the original in terms of dimensions... but sadly, they haven't made them in years.  Berger and Woodleigh make FMJ bullets but they are incredibly expensive (like almost $2 per bullet for the Woodleighs).  Sierra and Nosler both make 220 gr SP bullets, but both have a different profiles and shapes than original Krag bullets.  Hornady, although a soft point, is actually the closest to the original shape and ballistics.

As for load, most of us who shoot 220 gr bullets load them with 4350 (I use IMR, but Accurate or Hodgdon are just as good).  A 40.0 grain load is about as close as you can get to the original Krag round.  It's also time proven and safe!!!  This is the round I shoot in matches too.
  
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