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 10 what's wrong with this? (Read 6096 times)
butlersrangers
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what's wrong with this?
Mar 20th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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This beautiful looking sight is for sale on ebay.

It is listed as a model 1902 carbine sight.

What do you think?
  
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Local Boy
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #1 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 7:14pm
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Very nice looking sight but the base looks like a 1898 base?  One of the photos for the EBay listing shows the "C" on the wrong side.  Should be on the left side not the right.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #2 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 10:19pm
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Partially right.

The base is a model 1898 rifle sight base.

Model 1902 carbine sights are normally marked with "C" on the right-side of base. (I believe the 1898 carbine sight base was also marked on the right). Some 1902 bases were stamped on left-side of base.

Something else 'clues us in', that this sight is wrong. (In first photo).

The starting bid is $289, ouch!

« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2017 at 2:58am by butlersrangers »  
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Local Boy
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #3 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 6:34am
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OK I'm trying to learn something here but is there supposed to be a "C" stamped on the eye piece???  Joe Poyer's "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine" 2nd edition, paper back page 173, reads that [i][i]"...rear sight was nearly identical to the Model 1902 rifle rear sight except that the curve on the tangent base was 0.52 inch high at its highest point and it was marked "C" for carbine on the left side of the base." [/i][/i] The book doesn't indicated that a "C" was stamped on the eye piece.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #4 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:00am
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The "C" should be on the eye piece.  Is it the location of the C?  I think it's a little too close to the windage markings.  Also, for some reason, the graduation markings look odd to me... but maybe that's just me.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #5 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:02am
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In the second photo I see the Sgt. Peep too, and although I'm no expert, didn't the 1902C sights NOT have the Sgt. Peep?
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #6 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:52am
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On a 1902 carbine sight, there is no "C" on the 'eye-piece'.

That is the first clue that something is wrong.

The 1898 carbine sight does have a "C" on the eye-piece, because it is different than the rifle eye-piece.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #7 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 1:08pm
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See... I told you I was no expert, LOL.  I knew the Peep shouldn't have been there though.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #8 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 3:30pm
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The 'peep' can be on the 1902 carbine sight. The 1902 sight has variations in knobs, 'peep' or no 'peep', and which side of base the "C" is on. IIRC
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #9 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 4:15pm
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See... again, I wasn't sure. 

What did the sight go for?  Maybe someone should message the guy and tell him that he's trying to rip people off.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #10 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:45am
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Paul: The sight is still listed with no bids. I am reluctant to contact a seller on ebay, when they appear to be a Dealer. Never seems to turn out too well.

FWIW: The model 1902 carbine sight is one of the rarest U.S. Krag sights, with only about 1,000 made.

As stated earlier in this thread, the "C" stamp, although usually on the right-side of the base, also is known to appear on the left-side of some legitimate examples.

To the best of my knowledge, there was no "C" stamped on the eye-piece of model 1902 carbine sights. (However, I have a picture of one convincing example that does have a "C" on the eye-piece).

I have seen a variety of elevation locking-screws on model 1902 carbine sights.

I have seen the 1902 carbine sight both with and without "Sgt. Peep".

In summary:

The ebay sight is clearly on an incorrect base. The "C" on the eye-piece is wrong for this sight model.

Although neatly stamped, the "C" stamps disrupt the surrounding metal, creating a bit of a ghost image. (To me this is the best tipoff the sight was marked after manufacture and a fake).

Attached photos - "C" marks on bogus sight note disruption of surrounding metal. A real model 1902 base for comparison.
  
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #11 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:54am
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I do not believe the eyepiece "C" in BR's last post is genuine - all else aside, the font is wrong.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #12 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:04am
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Here is one that has me puzzled.

Everything about the base appears correct for the model 1902 carbine sight. (It happens to be stamped on left side of base).

Why the "C" on the eye-piece? I don't see any obvious fakery. Is it 'legit'???

(Model 1902 rifle and carbine sights have identical leaves and eye-pieces).

Maybe it was made on a Monday morning by a hung-over workman having flashbacks!
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #13 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 11:06am
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See, this is why I thought that there should be a C on the eyepiece, but not close to the windage markings.  I've seen another that was similar to the one you pictured above.  Like you said, maybe it was a hung-over Monday-morning sleepy-eyed stamper who probably stamped it, and then quietly said "Oh Crap... maybe no one will notice"...  LOL

I did recognize that the font of the C was also wrong and the displaced metal too!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: what's wrong with this?
Reply #14 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 1:21pm
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OK 'psteinmayer', I stuck my neck out and notified the ebay seller that his 1902 carbine sight is bogus. We will see how that goes!

There seems to be a lot of intentional and some unintended 'fakery' with Krags.

Fake "C" stamps on sights is pretty intentional! (By whoever did it).

Krag Carbine sights command a significant premium.

It is good to study real and fake specimens to get a feel for what is the real thing. Educate yourself on Font and Stamp Location.

(Still, there will be the occasional, 'I'm not sure', head-scratcher).

Examples of three fakes: (note 'ghost' around some letters showing disruption of metal - stamped after manufacture).

photo 1 & 2 - S&S Firearms sometimes offers hybrid 1898 rifle base and 1902 top stamped with "C". (S&S is truthful about sight and reasonable in price, but, not 're-sellers').

photo 3 & 4 - A fake that appeared on ebay. The base appears to be a real model 1898 carbine base, but, the top is wrong.

photo 5 - 1898 rifle leaf stamped with bogus "C". Font Size and location not quite right. Metal is disrupted.
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:10pm by butlersrangers »  
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