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1899 Cartouche (Read 2390 times)
larry.k
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1899 Cartouche
Jul 9th, 2020 at 12:55am
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Hi, I just picked up a Krag rifle from 1899, according to the serial number,  175829.  It has a cartouche which I'm trying to identify,  I think this cartouche was used at Springfield in 1901, in fact it says 1901 under the signature.  I'm attaching a photo of the cartouche.  Anyone know how this rifle made in 1899 ended up with a cartouche from 1901?  Does anyone know who that cartouche belongs to?  Thanks,  larry.k
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #1 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 1:16am
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Your acceptance 'cartouche' letters are J.S.A., which stands for Joseph Sumner Adams, Assistant-Foreman assembly room at Springfield Armory.

As you stated, your Krag's receiver, #175829, was manufactured in 1899, (likely, around January or February).

The explanation for the presence of a stock, dated 1901, with a receiver from 1899, is that most U.S. Krags were rebuilt during their use by the military.

When Springfield Armory, U.S. Arsenals and Depots were rebuilding Krags, the rifles and carbines were taken apart.
The serviceable parts were refinished and went into bins. Rebuilt Krags were assembled from a new combination of randomly selected parts.

In brief, your stock is not the first one that was on your receiver. The stock was being reused. There was no reason to "redo" the acceptance cartouche, the arm had already been accepted. Old stock markings were not purposely removed.
  
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larry.k
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #2 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 2:10am
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Thanks, that makes sense.  It was very confusing, and I could not make out the initials except for the last one, "A".  Thank you very much.  larry.k
  
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Whig
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #3 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 10:16am
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Larry,

It would be nice to see pictures of the rest of your Krag so we could enjoy it with you.

You have a nice cartouche there. Many Krags no longer have a cartouche because the stock may have been sanded and had the cartouche removed or there was a field or Ordnance replacement of the original damaged stock which was not marked with a cartouche. When a Krag was first made at Springfield Armory, it was marked with a cartouche for the year made and a $1 royalty price was paid for that rifle to the German govt for the copy of the original Mauser rifle design that the Krag design used. Replacement stocks were not marked because the royalty was already paid on that original rifle when first assembled.

Your Krag may also have had a stock change or replacement by an individual owner for some unknown reason which may account for the cartouche mis-match. This may have been done after it was sold to an individual out of military and govt control.

Regardless, it is a nice cartouche to have.  Since it is obviously not original, some people would search for an 1899 cartouche marked stock and switch it onto your receiver to make it more "correct". This is not unacceptable but finding an unmolested stock with an 1899 cartouche that matches the wear and patina on your receiver and current hand guard (if you have one) to switch out would cost $300-400 at least. The history of your Krag, wearing its current stock, would be lost. Some of these altered Krags have been together for 100 or more because of armory changes made from military use as stated by butlers above.

So, I'd advise just keeping it together as is and shoot it or buy more to add to your Krag collection with this one.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing!
  
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larry.k
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #4 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 11:45am
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Thanks for the info Whig!  I'm satisfied to keep the rifle as it is.  I doubt I could find the "correct" stock with cartouche anyway.  The rifle is in fine shape, and I will use it as a "shooter".  The bolt is new, has been replaced recently.  My collection is one of battle rifles, not just Krags. Attached is a photo of both sides of the rifle, it's pretty clean for the age.  Thanks for the help.
  
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Whig
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #5 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 11:54am
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Very nice Krag rifle, Larry. One any owner should be proud to own and shoot.

How is the bore on this treasure? What happened to the other bolt that required a change?

If you do shoot it, let us know how it does. Always nice to have another proud Krag owner coming to KCA!
  
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larry.k
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #6 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 2:14pm
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Hi, I cleaned the barrel thoroughly, inspected it with a light.  It is not bright.  The lands and grooves are clear to see, but the barrel seems dull to me.  I don't know if I should do anything now; thought I'd shoot it for a while and take another look.  I don't know exactly what to expect from a barrel that is 121 years old.

The bolt is another story;  this is the third Krag I've owned, the first two were sporters.  The first sporter had a cracked lug on the bolt when I bought it.  The dealer quickly replaced that bolt completely.  Since then I have kept that new bolt each time I traded the rifle.  So this is the third rifle I have used that new bolt in.  Thank God for interchangeable parts! 
Thanks again,  larry.k
  
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Whig
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #7 - Jul 9th, 2020 at 2:48pm
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Shooting your Krag is certainly the way to see how the barrel does considering its age and condition. We have found, somewhat surprisingly at times, how well many badly pitted Krags can shoot but I think it's more a result of the rifling remaining and not specifically the pitting. Bad pitting can shred a lead bullet and even a jacketed one somewhat and result in decreased accuracy and sometimes key-holing. But, shoot it and find out! Then let us know.

Also, Fred reminded me that the royalty paid on each Krag rifle and carbine produced went to the Norwegian inventors, Krag and Jorgensen, not the German govt, as I mis-stated. Thanks Fred for the correction! (Memory didn't serve in this case.) Mallory mentions this in The Krag Rifle reference.

And, Larry, yes it is nice to have extra parts to switch out in the Krags when you need them!
  
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larry.k
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Re: 1899 Cartouche
Reply #8 - Jul 12th, 2020 at 11:19pm
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Yes, I realize the fee was paid to Krag, not the Germans.

I will shoot a bit and then see how this thing patterns, inspect the barrel again, see if it's OK.  The lands and groves are clear to see, but the barrel looks dark.  We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the information, I"ll report back after I shoot a bit.

larry.k
  
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