Its been a while since I last posted, I haven't had much to say or ask regarding Krags until now.

A couple days ago I ran across a shortened 1898 Krag which was rather different than the typical carbine or carbine wannabe. It was roughly carbine length but had the front band with bayonet lug as would a normal rifle. After my earlier post regarding a short barreled Krag, I looked at the front sight and saw it seemed to be attached much like that of my 1894 and 1896 rifles. It definitely was not a 1903 sight pushed onto the barrel like so many other shortened rifles.

I didn't think too much about it until after I left the store and looked it up in my copy of Poyer's book. as my curiosity had been piqued.

From the brief look I gave the rifle and what I found in Poyer's book, it seems this could be a cadet rifle. Besides what little there is in the Poyer book, is there anything else I should look for regarding this being a fake or not? I already have questions as it was dated 1898 rather than 1899 but the receiver was a bit pitted and I did not have my reading glasses with so that date has a small possibility of being wrong.

The shop is asking $695 for the rifle so, if it is a Cadet rifle, that may be a decent price. Otherwise, it is a bit much for a fake or even a decent conversation piece.

Thanks for any help or advice.

You caught me before I could change my post. It is indeed the "Carbine altered for bayonet" or "school rifle" I am asking about. I noticed that when I started jotting down notes to bring with to the shop and take a closer look. I wish it were one of these but the date on the receiver precludes that possibility. Otherwise, $695 would probably be a good price for a real one.

Thanks for the advice on the cartouches and the muzzle. I have a follow up question regarding the front sight- was it a band like on the 1903 Springfield or was it attached to the top of the barrel like a normal Krag? I assumed the latter but am now wondering if a banded sight was used instead? As you mention, there are a lot of fakes.

I also remembered I have Canfield's book on U.S. military bolt action rifles. He has a list of the serial numbers of various models and I wonder if there are any known numbers or blocks in which the school rifles came from. I'll have to pick it up before I head to the shop to see if anything pops up.

Thanks for the pictures and ad, they are very interesting. I couldn't open the pictures earlier for some reason but I could now. I really like them, it is a part of American history few know about.

I like the concept of a bayonet for big game hunting as I have had deer run into me a couple of times while chasing them.

Unfortunately, I was too busy trying to dodge them to have used the bayonet- even a fawn can hit one hard enough to leave a lasting and painful bruise! I have also read of grizzlies being killed with swords in "duels" but not with a bayonet. That is well beyond my "sense of adventure" comfort level these days.

I'm waiting for the shop to open, if the gun hasn't sold I'll be able to take a better look. It definitely does not have a banded front sight but the rest I cannot vouch for. It also has an old military sling attached, it is something else which grabbed my interest as it is obviously old.

I did realize that it could be a school rifle as there is a military academy high school and college within a half hour of the shop as well as two others which had been military academies in the past. The one I entered a few years after it dropped the military affiliation and went co-ed to eventually graduate from but had forgotten that part of its history. 

The one I went to did not have any firearms that I know of while I was there and had moved twice since it was a full fledged academy with its own range (my father grew up less than a mile from that location) but I guess it could be possible one of the armory guns could have been "liberated" from there (I know of a few things which this occurred from my time there) and has now made its way to the used rack.

It will be a learning experience to look closer at this particular rifle, I just hope not an expensive one if I buy it.

Photos: Moro Philippine Constabulary member (1901 sight and 'humped' hand-guard) and Northwestern Military Academy 'cadets', circa 1915, possibly with 'school rifles'.

Shattuck is a school I forgot about and is not all far from the shop. It is probably closer to that shop than my old school. That makes that gun a little more interesting. I wonder if there is a way of determining serial numbers of these guns and where they ended up.

As for my trip, I passed on the rifle for now. They dropped the price down to $600 as part of a two gun deal.  I ended up with the other gun, buying a Savage 1899A in 38/55 instead. It is a riddle too.

I passed on the Krag for a few reasons. Starting with the barrel, it appeared to be a carbine barrel based on length and muzzle diameter. The oddities were it having a recessed crown, a 1901 rifle rear sight (at least I was unable to find a "C" on it), and the barrel was mounted on an 1898 receiver. The muzzle had not been turned down, there was no step and it was the same diameter at the muzzle as listed for the carbine. The front sight base was also the height listed for a carbine.

The stock was a cut down rifle stock missing the plug. I don't know how I missed that the first time but I did. The cartouches had J.S.A. On the left side bit it also had the year 1901 stamped below the initials which the school guns weren't supposed to have.

I forgot to look at the sling to see if I could have made out the manufacturer. Some of them have decent collector value and it was not in bad condition. Depending on what that came out as, I might have been wise to go with the two gun offer the shop made. If the sling was worth even $100 and the 1899 was valued at full retail, the two gun price could have got the Krag approaching the $400 mark and that is getting closer to my price for a representative shooter gun. I'll give it another couple weeks and take another look. The Krag has been on the rack less than 2 weeks and the shop may be more willing to deal once more time has passed by. In the meantime, some more info may come my way giving me a better idea on what this gun is.

Another question, are there records of any other schools receiving rifles for training? It would be interesting to see what other schools received rifles. My old school would be a real interesting find.

I am not certain of the serial number but it was something like 331763. I looked it up in Canfield's book on U.S. miltary bolt actions but came up short. The closest serial number was for one a bit lower and it was certified to HQ of M? Company of Engineers. Or something like that.

I don't remember what the bayonet lug looked like, I never thought to look that closely other than to see if it had the cut out on the bottom side. so many things to learn with a new item and not enough time nor experience to get them all. Even with the help of this site and other materials.

Someone put a fair bit of work into this gun to get it looking like it does. It's much better than a "shade tree 'smith" would have done to make a quick buck but it seems to be lacking the marks of an arsenal modification. Whomever did this put some effort into getting things done right, at least in appearances.

Based on what little I know and the wealth of info you have given me, it seems to be another $350 shooter, albeit a very well done one. Kind of like  a used car with new Pirelli tires and Recaro seats- it may not add to the value but it does help with the sale-ability of the item. If it sits a while maybe they will discount it enough for me to pick it up. It is a good facsimile of a school rifle, at least to me. If the price comes down enough I might find out how accurate of a shooter it is.

I believe your asssessment that the piece in question is NOT a proper school gun, is correct.

There are just too many major things "wrong" with it, serial number, un-stepped barrel, etc. If you can get the price down to $350 or so, it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't pay much more.

As to sights, look at the range markings, on the 1901 style they are 2000 for the rifle and 2300 for the carbine.