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 10 newbe questions for reloading for Krag. (Read 6349 times)
BM1455
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newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Mar 19th, 2016 at 8:36pm
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Hello guys.  I'm new to reloading for the .30-40 and will be shooting it in my 1898 rifle that has a very nice .308 bore.  A few questions.
Firstly, is there a difference between the thickness of the Remington and the Winchester Brass?  If so, I will circle back to this later in the post.
I found a random Winchester case at the range.  Brought it home and cleaned it, re-sized it in my lee FL re-sizer die, checked it for case length, and seated a Hornady 220 RN to 3.080".  It is just a dummy case with no powder and will be used for die set up only.  It cycles nicely in my Springfield 1898 with no problems. 

Today I went to the range and fired 6 Remington factory 180gr loads.  All went nicely.  Brought the brass home and tried to set up my Hornady 30 cal. (.308) neck sizing die.  I wanted to re-size the neck as far down towards the beginning of the shoulder as I could without actually getting to that point.  Then I added the expander and decapper back into the die.  At first I tightened it all the way down to the point where the mandrel gripped the expander tightly enough and found it collapsed the shoulder of the case.  I re set it by screwing the expander and the locking madrel down until I felt it touch the mouth of the case. The problem seems to be that the Krag neck is so much longer that it will not allow me to tighten the mandrel down enough for it to grip the expander/ decapper in place without tightening it all down to where it collapses the shoulder. 
1.  Am I doing it wrong?
2.  If not, what I found as an alternative was that if I just tighten it all down so it grips the expander and just do not cam over the press it does not seem to collapse the shoulder but it will fully re size the neck.  This leads to the next question.  My outside neck measurement on the Remington dummy case I made with the Hornady neck die with the 220 bullet measured .332" diameter.  The Winchester case I made with my Lee FL die measured .336".  Will this be OK?
  
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Parashooter
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #1 - Mar 19th, 2016 at 9:24pm
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1. That's not a mandrel, it's a collet - and the shaft it retains isn't the expander, it's the "spindle" - at least according to (You need to Login to view media files and links)

"The Zip Spindle™ design on all full length size dies positively locks to eliminate slippage. A series of light threads cut on both the spindle and spindle collet allows you to make incremental adjustments by turning the spindle or you can easily "zip it" up or down for larger movements."

2. The Hornady die appears designed for necks shorter than we find on the .30/40 case. Not a problem, since we seldom need to size the whole length of the neck. Just back the die body out a bit so the case mouth isn't running into the collet, or use your FL die and back it out enough so it sizes only the neck - a setup enabled by the .30/40's strongly tapered body.

3. It's not unusual to find variation in neck wall thickness not only between brands but even between lots from the same maker. It's a good reason to separate cases by brand.
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #2 - Mar 19th, 2016 at 9:46pm
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Thanks for the correction on my vocabulary - you are correct.  Smiley
I figured it might be a difference in thickness on the two types of brass but I forgot to measure it on the range brass/ Winchester brass since I was not planning on using it for real ammo anyways.
Your point on using the FL die is valid and I thought about it  but maybe I will just set up the Hornady die the way you mentioned and call it good.  I would like to have the FL die set up for that job and the neck die set up for it's own job I guess. 
So, no real issue with the necks being slightly undersized?  the measurements in the Hornady and Lyman books show .338".
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #3 - Mar 20th, 2016 at 11:29am
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Howdy,

I use a LEE FL sizing die, and I set it up per the lee instructions, and then I back it out 3/4 to one turn for neck sizing... works like a charm!  The mandrel in the LEE die should be set so the top of the pin is level with the top of the locking collar.  This is very important as setting it incorrectly could result in a severely stuck case (I experienced this with a 30-06 die which caused me a great deal of stress).   Hornady has different set-up instructions for their spindle, and I'm not familiar with them, and frankly, I'd just trust what Para says (he's pretty much the expert here).

As for the brass... I use both Remington and Winchester.  With the lack of brass these days, we use what we can.  I don't mix them though, as I usually load for match shooting, and that gives me consistency.  My preference is with the Winchester brass, as it cleans up much nicer, and my loads seem to be more consistent... however, Remington brass is much more prevalent these days (I haven't seen Winchester ammo on the shelves in ages).  I'm actually waiting for the seasonal run of brass by Remington this fall and then I'm going to order a couple hundred new cases.
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #4 - Mar 20th, 2016 at 1:53pm
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Thanks guys.  ...and yes, I like reading parashooter's posts too.  Especially on the Norwegian Krags.

I was planning on using IMR 4350 since I have a lot of it and have experience using it for my Norwegian Krag.  How many of you guys use a crimp and/ or magnum primers with this powder?  Not sure if I want to necessarily use the magnum primers but I have seen a few posts where people do so.
I also have some N-160, H380 and IMR 4895 but I was planning on just using the 4350 unless any of these others get rave reviews here.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #5 - Mar 20th, 2016 at 2:29pm
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IMR-4895 is great in .30-40 with 150 to 180 grain jacketed bullets. Use 'Starting' loads within Krag's pressure range.

The .30-40 Case has a nice long neck. Neck-Sizing only works well for me. Magnum Primers and 'Crimping' case mouth is unnecessary.

Standard Large Rifle primers give very good results.

Don't try and 'Hot Rod' the Krag cartridge. Respect your Rifle's metallurgy.

p.s. IMR-4350 is very popular for .30-40 Krags, especially with 190-220 grain jacketed projectiles.
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2016 at 8:16pm
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Here are two Remington cases.  The first one (left) is FL re-sized.  The second is neck sized using the Hornady .30 cal (308) neck sizing die screwed down into the press as far as I dared without having the fully tightened collet crush the shoulder.  I might be able to get it a little further down but do I really need to?  I have about 2/3 of the neck re-sized.  You can see how the bullet I will use generally lines up with it. 
I was planning on a slight crimp as well.  I probably will start loading with about 37.5 grs of IMR 4350 and Winchester LR primers since that is what I know I have.  I may have some CCI's someplace.  Any concerns I am missing?
  
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madsenshooter
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #7 - Mar 21st, 2016 at 4:41am
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Remington cases are heavier (thicker) than Winchester cases, not much to worry about unless you're approaching maximum loads.  The difference might make a small change in the point of impact between loads in the two different cases.  I can't comment on what you're doing, other than to say forget the .308 neck sizer and just back your full length die out a bit so it isn't sizing the body and shoulder.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #8 - Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:34pm
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For what it's worth...  I use 4350 with my 220 gr RN bullets, and I use magnum primers and apply a light crimp with a LEE factory crimp die.  Butlersrangers is correct that a crimp is unnecessary... however, I seem to get nice consistency with the crimp. 

The jury is still out on the whole magnum VS standard primer, and there is good data either way.  I started using them because I was told I'd get a more consistent and complete burn with the slower-burning 4350, and I just kept on using them.  I load the Hornady 220 gr RN over 40.0 grains of IMR-4350 and a CCI 250 Magnum primer.  This is pretty much the modern equivalent of the original Krag round, and the only thing I shoot in my 98 for CMP matches!

Now, more on the crimping issue:  If I use a spitzer bullet in any of my Krags, and I DON'T crimp, then I will experience the bullets telescope into the case neck upon chambering a round.  This happens to me every time, and always results in the case being wedged cockeyed in the chamber requiring it to be pried free (actually spoiled a few good shots back in my hunting days this way).  Now, not everyone has this problem... but it's enough for me to say if you're going to load a spitzer bullet, you would be wise to crimp!
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #9 - Mar 22nd, 2016 at 12:24am
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Thanks for both of the latest two posts.

On the cases.  I may just use the FL die for both as mentioned above but I am assuming there is no issue with the neck sized case in the picture.  It is neck sized to the same diameter as the Lee FL die and though the Hornady neck die does not re size the entire neck it does hold well over the diameter of the bullet.  Once the bullet is pressed into it it will expand the opening to the same size as the FL sized case anyways.  The only real difference might be the tension presented by only having 2/3 to 3/4 of the case neck gripping vs. the entire neck.  Perhaps a slight crimp may be a good thing there?  Maybe not needed though.

On the primers.  I will be starting around 38 grains of IMR 4350 and will work up unless it is the opinion of people that that would be a waste of time.  (Hornady starting load is way down at 34.5gr while Lyman starts at 40.0 grs.)  Any issue with a light crimp without the magnum primers on starting loads? 
At this point I am just interested in using the 220 bullets.  After I get used to this caliber I may try other things.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #10 - Mar 22nd, 2016 at 10:21pm
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I've been crimping all along... including before I started using the 250 Magnums.  Never really had a problem with it.  Just enough crimp to prevent telescoping.
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #11 - May 13th, 2016 at 5:30pm
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How many times are you guys able to reload your Remington cases?  (Using 220 gr RN and about 39-40 grs of IMR4350.)  I was at a gun shop a few weeks ago and one of the guys who happened to like Krags said only two reloads past the original ammo harvest shot.  That means a total of only three firings.  I found that discouraging since the brass and ammo is so hard to find.
  
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #12 - May 13th, 2016 at 6:36pm
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'BM1455' - That gentleman's experience, (2 reload case life), sounds like the exception rather than the rule for Krags.

IMHO - There must be something fundamentally wrong with his chamber dimensions, resizing Die, or techniques.

Most KCA members report their Krags to be gentle on Brass. There is a lot to be said for partial neck-sizing, routinely annealing case necks, and checking fired cases during shooting sessions.

I once owned a British Short Magazine Lee-Enfield, Mk-III, that was a destroyer of .303 Brass. It had a New BSA barrel on it! However, the chamber was sloppy for War & Crud and not designed for reloaders. My cases were showing complete head-separations on the second loading. I was using a simple 'Lee-Loader', which only neck-sized. The rifle ruined all my new Winchester brass, but, made me appreciate rimmed cartridge cases! (BTW - The .303 loads were quite mild and accurate).
  
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #13 - May 14th, 2016 at 10:48am
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As long as you follow good reloading practices, you should be good for multiple reloads.  I am well into double digits on some of my Remington brass (I started reloading 30-40 with a LEE hand loader around 1984)!  Anneal your brass... and DON'T try to squeeze every last ounce of velocity... and you should have years of use out of your brass.  I shoot in at least one CMP vintage match per month, and I pull from a pool of around 150 cases.  The biggest problem I'm experiencing is cracks in the mouth of the case necks, or in the neck side wall, at which point the case goes into the trash!  Inspect your brass carefully before loading... and as others have said, be gentle.

Grin  Paul
  
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BM1455
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Re: newbe questions for reloading for Krag.
Reply #14 - May 14th, 2016 at 12:35pm
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Thanks guys.  I had a feeling he was being overly cautious with the two reloads thing.  I was planning on making my 220 gr about the same as the original loads so the sights worked well.  Working my way towards 40 grs of IMR4350.  Will test my .39 grn loads today if I have time.
  
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