Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
 10 Winchester 30 Army Full Patch (Read 13093 times)
Jeremy T Garner
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 98
Location: Post Falls, Idaho
Joined: Apr 26th, 2016
Gender: Male
Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
May 25th, 2016 at 1:32am
Print Post  
I walked in one of my local shops and they had decided to sell some pieces out of a display. One of the pieces I picked was an already opened box of Winchester 30 Army. Ammo is in fantastic shape. I paid $60 for it and thought that's was pretty decent.
  
Back to top
YouTube  
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #1 - May 25th, 2016 at 3:05am
Print Post  
Nice display item!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
psteinmayer
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 2391
Location: Ypsilanti, Michgan
Joined: Aug 30th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #2 - May 25th, 2016 at 11:56am
Print Post  
Ok... I have a couple questions for the more astute collectors:

1. Shouldn't the bullets be cupro nickel and not copper jacketed?
2. Shouldn't the primers be brass/copper and slightly rounded?

Not trying to rain on your parade Jeremy... but they look to me like they've been reloaded using modern primers (possibly CCI) and Hornady 220 gr FMJ bullets (no longer made, but still available up until 5 years or so ago).  I could be wrong about this (and frequently am)... but it's just my gut feeling.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #3 - May 25th, 2016 at 2:03pm
Print Post  
Am not 100% sure, Paul, but I believe you may be correct. Didn't think about the primers when first viewing the pics, but my first (and instantaneous) reaction to the bullets was "Huhh??"
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jeremy T Garner
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 98
Location: Post Falls, Idaho
Joined: Apr 26th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #4 - May 25th, 2016 at 5:15pm
Print Post  
I wasn't sure overall so I figured I'd post up some photos and see what others thought. The pictures I've seen from other previous auctions of this or the red label Winchester showed both colors of primers but they both were definitely cupped primers and not flat. I've also seen photos of the bullet itself being both Cupro Nickel and Copper jacketed so I really wasn't sure. The box and the brass with that headstamp is cool and worth at least half what I paid for it to me so I figured I'd take the gamble on it. The headstamp on the brass was unique as I have never seen it just marked WRA 30. I've almost always seen it marked WRA Co.
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2016 at 3:34am by Jeremy T Garner »  
Back to top
YouTube  
IP Logged
 
Jeremy T Garner
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 98
Location: Post Falls, Idaho
Joined: Apr 26th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #5 - May 25th, 2016 at 6:08pm
Print Post  
My box states "Staynless" and that's why I didn't initially question the primers because the early Winchester "Staynless" primers were silver in color. From further research the 30 on the headstamp is not a caliber as I thought but year of manufacture. The only other photo I could find of just a WRA headstamp without the Co. was WRA 31 220 gr full patch with a copper jacket and "Staynless" silver primer made in 1931. The top label of my box confirms this on the bottom right where it reads 8-30 (August 1930).
  
Back to top
YouTube  
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #6 - May 25th, 2016 at 7:03pm
Print Post  
I am not a 'Cartridge Collector', but, this is all quite interesting. Thanks for Sharing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dick Hosmer
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Collector of Springfield
Arms, 1865-1915

Posts: 1862
Location: Northern California
Joined: Nov 20th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #7 - May 26th, 2016 at 2:23pm
Print Post  
Ditto, though I have a bunch of (mostly) sealed boxes of .50-70 and .45-70 to go with my guns. Never really acquired much for the Krag, and, it is all Frankford Arsenal stuff, in any event. The box under discussion is commercial, and I'm not sure that the rounds shown are those that it originally contained. Not sure they aren't, either - but someone will ultimately tell us, I'm certain.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
psteinmayer
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 2391
Location: Ypsilanti, Michgan
Joined: Aug 30th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #8 - May 26th, 2016 at 4:07pm
Print Post  
I have two boxes of Krag ammo... a Frankford 04 box and a WRA 07 box.  Both have cupro bullets and bronze cupped primers.  Both also have some split/cracked cases.  I believe this is because of the age, coupled with incorrect (before they came to me) storage.  I have never fired one, although about ten years ago, I did disassemble a round (Frankford 04) that was not part of my boxes, and loaded the powder and bullet in a modern Remington case and fired that, which fired just fine.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
reincarnated
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 562
Joined: Mar 11th, 2012
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #9 - May 26th, 2016 at 4:21pm
Print Post  
I dug out WRACo Vol 1, thinking to find the answer, but found no reference, except that Winchester-made bullets were marked with a small "w" until 1932.  HWS Vol 1 reports that "Navy contracts for Cal .30 ball ammunition continued through the 1920s and into the early 1930s. An illustration shows a WRA 31 headstamp.   Later in the same long paragraph, the writer reported that some of the contract ammunition was released to civilian shooters via the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice.  The last sentence in the paragraph reads "A late ball round, headstamped W.R.A. 30, has been examined with a nickle-alloy or monel metal primer cup - possibly for subcaliber use." 

In December 1961, I was assigned to inventory ammunition in storage at the Naval Ammunition Depot at Lualualei, Oahu.  I was amazed to find .30-40 cartridges in service.  They were Model 1925s, loaded with 172 grain M1 ball bullets.  The boxes were marked for subcaliber use and had Frankford Arsenal labels.  The cases were headstamped FA and dated from the late 1920s.

After all that, I don't think the cases are original to the box.  The box would have contained cases headstamped "WRACo".  After all that, the box and cartridges are still an item of interest.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #10 - May 26th, 2016 at 5:14pm
Print Post  
FWIW - 'Reincarnated's' post makes mention of ammo, (Ball Round), with W.R.A. 30 head-stamp and nickel alloy primer cup.

Jeremy has indicated the "30" is likely a year date and his box is dated 8-30. (Maybe everything is correct).

Western Cartridge Company introduced "Lubaloy" copper alloy jackets in the 1920s. A December, 1929, American Rifleman add makes mention of Lubaloy Palma ammo.

I don't have any old .30-40 commercial ammo, but, here's an empty 'Western' box (non-corrosive primers) and probably an earlier box that touts 'non-fouling' Lubaloy bullet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeremy T Garner
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 98
Location: Post Falls, Idaho
Joined: Apr 26th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #11 - May 26th, 2016 at 10:20pm
Print Post  
Where was the W located on the projectile? I'm assuming it would be on the base and would be willing to pull one down for the sake of history and science! Smiley Scouring through other forums, cartridges of the world volumes, and auctions the "8-30" on the bottom right of the top label definitely indicates month and year of manufacture. Just as reincarnated stated I was expecting a headstamp bearing WRA Co. and was surprised to just see WRA. The 30 on the cartridge from all of my research also is a year of manufacture so the box and cases are at least from the same year but who knows if they actually belong together. I would certainly love to know. Pulling a bullet and posting pics of the bullet and powder may help?
  
Back to top
YouTube  
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #12 - May 26th, 2016 at 10:55pm
Print Post  
FWIW:
Various references I have read today confirm the use of "W.R.A. 30" and "W.R.A. 31" as a Winchester cartridge head-stamp in 1930 and 1931.

Winchester introduced "Staynless" primers around 1929. They superseded the "NF" (non-fulminate) primer, "which was somewhat copper in color", according to one collecting source. I assume the 'Staynless primer' may have been silver in color (?).

In the 1920s, Winchester began using a Lubaloy (copper) plating on lead bullets, (while Western Cartridge Co. was also using that term on copper jacketed bullets).

I don't know if Winchester had adopted copper jacketed bullets by 1930.

The Western Cartridge Company purchased a bankrupt Winchester R. A. Company on 12-22-1931.

It would be real interesting to see the base of one of Jeremy's bullets to see if it is marked with a "W".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
reincarnated
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 562
Joined: Mar 11th, 2012
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #13 - May 26th, 2016 at 11:02pm
Print Post  
The "w" is not on the base of the pre-1932 Winchester bullets.  It is stamped on the side in a very small font.  Must have done wonders for accuracy.  If there is a cannelure, the letter is forward of the cannelure.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeremy T Garner
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 98
Location: Post Falls, Idaho
Joined: Apr 26th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #14 - May 26th, 2016 at 11:56pm
Print Post  
Yeah I'm sure that really helped out in the accuracy department! Wink The projectile does have a cannelure and I will investigate further when I get home from work. If it is small font and I can capture it on camera visibly I will do my best to put up the photo for all to see.
  
Back to top
YouTube  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint