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 10 Winchester 30 Army Full Patch (Read 13097 times)
reincarnated
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #15 - May 27th, 2016 at 2:07am
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I went back to WRACo Vol 1 again.  There are line drawings of the 220 grain FMJ bullet seated in a Krag case.  The drawing shows the crimp in the bullet cannelure and the tiny "w" visible just above the cannelure.  The round nose of the bullet does not, to my elderly eyes, quite match the bullet in the photo and I also have very minor doubts about the copper-colored bullet.  I looked at WRACo loaded cartridges in my collection (other calibers) and the "w" is visible.

All the Winchester labels came from the Winchester art department.  There is a product number on each.  My understanding is that the "8-30" on the label is a date showing when that particular label was approved for use by the Winchester bureaucracy.  We can infer that the box went into the Winchester product distribution system after that date.  It may or may not tell us much about the age of the contents.

W R A (no dots) and a 2-digit year code was specified as the headstamp for Winchester cases made for a government contract.  I think it is possible that the WRA 30 cases loaded for a late Navy contract would go into a box like that, especially since Frankford Arsenal was loading Subcaliber cases at the same time.  FA used the M-1 bullets for the .30-06 because they had used up all the Krag and .30-03 bullets in stock and would make no more.

Those boxes of Western Cartridge Company 180 grain boat-tailed bullets are very interesting.  They are from the post WW1 to pre-WW2 period when long range military style shooting was in vogue.  WRACo loaded the same sort of load, but their labels indicate that the loaded cartridge is too long for a Krag magazine and is intended to be single-loaded.  I expect that there were rifles purpose-built, and maybe not Krags, for that cartridge.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #16 - May 27th, 2016 at 2:59am
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After Western bought Winchester in December, 1931, did they still produce ammo under the Winchester name?

I saw a picture of a Box of the special .30-06 ('single load only') ammo with copper jacketed bullets. I assumed it was simply too long to feed through the Model 54 Winchester's magazine and was intended for long range 'slow fire'.

IIRC - The model 54 was manufactured from 1925 to 1930.
  
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Jeremy T Garner
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #17 - May 27th, 2016 at 4:22am
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There is no "w" visible on any of the 20 cartridges that I can find. Their is consistent tarnishing on both the cases and projectiles. If these are in fact reloads as Paul suggested they were well done, as everything is very uniform, and quite long ago. That is very interesting information about the headstamp! I appreciate you spending the time and effort looking it up! The knowledge and kindness on this forum is absolutely amazing. I'm a student of history and love to revel in its wisdom. I'm only 30 years old (started collecting pretty young lol) and am really trying to keep the traditions of these rifles alive. If these things could only talk and tell us where they've been Smiley
  
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #18 - May 27th, 2016 at 11:30am
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This has all been so very interesting... and forces us to research, which only serves to educate us further!  I Love it!!!

As for the cartridges, I concede that they may be original, but I'm still skeptical based on the lack of a "W" on the bullet... and those flat primers.  Some US military rounds even as recent as the 1960s still had the cupped-shaped primers (I have some HXP M2 Ball dated 1962 with rounded/cupped primers).  I just don't know when flat primers started appearing.  Other than that, they sure do look old, so if they are reloads, they were loaded a long time ago...

Time for more research!
  
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #19 - May 27th, 2016 at 3:31pm
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I've opened WRACo Vol 1 again.  There were .30-03 military (or at least FMJ) loads without the "w" because the illustration shows a sample with & without.  There was also (missed it before) a separate section on .30 U.S.G. loads, yet another name for the Krag cartridge.  The illustration shows a military cartridge without the "w" but with a CN (cupro-nickle) notation in the description.

The .30 U.S.G. entry notes that Navy contracts for W.R.A.Co. 29 and W.R.A. (with dots) 32 headstamps were for blank cartridges with a cannelure at the neck to hold a tan card wad.

The .30 Army entry indicates that FP (full patch) bullets were loaded and that some of the loads were GM (gilding metal) and that some did not have a "w" and were loaded with flat brass primer.

They manufactured components in lots or batches, with enough for whatever contract they were filling and then had leftovers.  The WRACo type headstamps appeared until the mid-1960s, depending on what was in the component bins.

Jeremy- if most of them could talk, they would tell you that it is pretty boring being in the closet, attic or basement for years.
  
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #20 - May 27th, 2016 at 5:00pm
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Boxes of Winchester .30-40 Krag and many other calibers (including .220 Swift) are found with labels that say "Loaded in France".  These date from the 1920s and 1930s.

The Model 54 Winchester was made (a few thousand) in .30 WCF (.30-30).  These were often re-chambered for .30-40 Krag and sometimes for things like the Ackley Improved Krag. I have an original in .30-30 and have given thought to a .30-40 conversion.
  
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Jeremy T Garner
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #21 - May 27th, 2016 at 6:27pm
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reincarnated wrote on May 27th, 2016 at 3:31pm:
Jeremy- if most of them could talk, they would tell you that it is pretty boring being in the closet, attic or basement for years.



Haha, interesting analysis. I've never really thought of it that way. Quite true though. I guess I should have said a "time lapse" of the history of each of these rifles and different pieces of militaria to cut down on some of the more boring parts Smiley
  
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #22 - Jun 2nd, 2016 at 4:19pm
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They look righteous to me. God only knows how many sealed boxful's of that stuff I blasted away as a kid in the late 60's. You could pick up 90's to 30's vintage .30-40 FMJ ammo at shows all day long for $2-3/box. One of the main reasons I got into bullet casting and reloading was I got tired of getting beat up shooting that stuff in my Krag carbine. That late (30's) vintage stuff was my favorite because I didn't have to be so fastidious in cleaning the bore afterward.
  
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Jeremy T Garner
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #23 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 3:17am
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An auction on Gunbroker came up with the exact same label as my ammunition. The auction number is 564033933 on gunbroker. The photos seem to confirm that my ammo is original and unmodified as the cartridges look identical. Flat "silver colored" primers and a copper jacket with consistent tarnish on the cases like mine. Anyone gets a chance to look at it I would appreciate your thoughts. Cheers.
  
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Re: Winchester 30 Army Full Patch
Reply #24 - Aug 23rd, 2016 at 7:14am
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Your cartridges may be correct factory loads. I have a few boxes of the same Winchester ammo. One full but unsealed box holds copper full patch bullets and unplated (copper colored) domed primers. Another Winchester box of the same vintage, but full of old style blanks with paper bullets had flat nickeled primers. The blanks labeling was in red ink to set them apart from the regular ammo label printed in black. Further, it's my understanding that both domed and flat primers coexisted for a while and reloading tools of the era could be had with either cupped or flat primer seating rams.
Re: W marked bullets. I've never seen Winchester bullets marked with a stamped "W" but have observed "W" marked primers.
  
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