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 25 Bad head space (Read 14326 times)
Preston
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Bad head space
Jan 14th, 2017 at 2:53am
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I recently purchased an unmolested 1898 Krag from 1900.  According to the previous owner it sat in his gun cabinet for about 30 years, 20 years in his grandfather's cabinet before that, and who knows how many years before that in the neighbors.  (Granted that might not even get me half way back to 1900)

I got my Okie Head Space gauges in today and much to my dismay failed both No-Go and Field.  I am shocked!  All of my Mosin Nagant's passed when I tested them! But my Krag failed. 

What now?
« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2017 at 4:42pm by Preston »  

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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #1 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 3:47am
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'Preston' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

It would help if you posted some close-up pictures of your bolt, especially, showing the rear of the front locking-lug.

Do you have any brass cartridge cases that have been fired in your Krag? A picture of fired cases will tell a lot.

FWIW - In the old days, some shooters use to 'lap' the bolt lug, so that the bolt would contact the receiver both at the front lug and at the rear of the bolt's 'safety-rib'. The down side of this practice was that it did not really make the action stronger, since it introduced more bolt 'free travel' or 'Head-Space'.

If this has been done to your Krag, new old stock (NOS) bolts are available from 'Movieman630' on ebay for $55.00.

You can check your present bolt's fit by removing the striker mechanism & extractor. Insert the 'bare' bolt into the receiver. There should be (approx. 2 or 3 thousandths) clearance between the rear of the bolt rib and the right-rear of the receiver.

If the rib contacts the receiver, it is likely the front lug was lapped at some time.

Head-Space is probably 'overly worried about', when the rimmed .30-40 Krag cartridge is the subject.

Double-Check your 'Field' gauge and make sure the rim measures .073".

Most of us 'neck-size' only and after a single firing the case is fire formed to the Krag's chamber.
  
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Culpeper
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #2 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 4:00am
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You know what.  I have bought around ten krags in varying degrees of condition and except for three that I have never fired I have never checked head space.  The Krags headspace on the rim and not the shoulder as you know.  The rim is surrounded by the bolt and the bolt crown.  Your rifle looks sound.  I would check for a cracked lug and if there are none to be found would put a round in it and fire one down range.  Then I would check the spent case for problems.

But that is me.  I could be way off base on my opinion.  Smarter guys should be along in a day or so.

My very first Krag had a modified/damaged bolt crown which led me to drop a .30-06 round into the chamber.  It dropped in with no problem.  It should have not chambered and stuck out about a half inch if it was a .30-40 chamber.  Some veterans group modified the gun to shoot blanks in the distant past.

By the way, welcome to the Forum.  Glad to have ya' on board.

Good shooting,
  

Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of People Eating Tasty Animals (PETA).  (You need to Login to view media files and links)
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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #3 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 4:16am
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'Preston' - It looks like your 'bolt-rib' may be making contact with the receiver.

This suggests the front lug may have been 'lapped'.
  
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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #4 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 6:24am
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Thank you both for your friendly and helpful replies!  I really do appreciate it. 

I've taken more pictures that I'll attach below that hopefully will show what you need to see.  I have yet to shoot the rifle.  It took me a little while to find any ammo for it, but now I've got 80 factory loaded rounds and 100 rounds of new brass.

There was room to move the stripped bolt back and forth.   I took pictures of the bolt as far forward and back as it would move.  I also measured the Field head space gauge and it measured 0.074.
  

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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #5 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 6:37am
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Here are more images of the locking lug.

Measuring the lug front to back it measures 0.4035"
  

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psteinmayer
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #6 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 12:54pm
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Welcome to the Forum... and to the wonderful world of Krags!

It appears that just as Butlersrangers said, your locking lug has been altered.  Get a new bolt from Movieman360. 

On another note... it's a beautiful looking 98!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #7 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 3:37pm
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'Preston' - A normal 'closed' Krag bolt, with the striker 'un-cocked' and chamber empty, can be moved a few thousandths of an inch, fore and aft. This movement is quite visible and audible!

If the striker is cocked, movement will seem less and require a lot more effort.

In both cases, a slight gap will be visible and present, between the rear of the bolt rib and the receiver.

(p.s. - movieman630, on ebay, and Grandpa's Gun Parts, through KCA Classifieds, are the same individual. He is the grandson of the late J. DeChristopher. The parts and service are good.

I don't know if his Grandpa's Site is active yet. On ebay, shipping is free and you can pay with 'Paypal').
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2017 at 5:19pm by butlersrangers »  
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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #8 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 4:14pm
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Thank you all!  I was wondering who movieman 360 was.  I will order a new bolt and hopefully an extractor spring as well.  The first time I removed the bolt from the gun the extractor spring broke off and flew out.  It took me a while to figure out what that part was.
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #9 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 4:39pm
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'Preston' - Because of the 'slope' at the front of a Krag's locking lug, it is very difficult to get consistent measurements of the lug, 'front to rear'. FWIW: two lugs I measured, (one used bolt and one NOS bolt), averaged about .406". It was possible to get widely varying measurements!

In reality, this measurement is probably irrelevant. What is more important is where the recessed bolt face ends up in relationship to the barrel breech (the allowance for rim thickness or head-space).

I see nothing grossly evident in your photographs. The lug may have been lapped.

I would get and try a new bolt, while they cost only $55.
  
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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #10 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 5:03pm
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It was difficult to get a measurement there.  I didn't know if it was meaningful or not, but figured I'd measure it while the bolt was out and I had the calipers there.

I am going to take that advice and order a bolt today.  I bought the rifle for $375 so I'm not in it too deep.  Prices seem all over the place for these.
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #11 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 6:01pm
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'Preston' - $375 for a nice Krag (and a family heirloom to boot) is a great price!

Wow, I've never had a problem with the small extractor spring on a Krag. Did the part break or just come off the extractor-body?

That spring is a tight fit into the extractor-body and is not intended to be disassembled. (Somebody probably took it off at sometime).

FWIW - You may just want to get a complete extractor with spring attached.

'movieman630' has the extractor-spring for $10 or the complete extractor with spring for $25. You can also find complete extractors even cheaper, from time to time, on ebay and at gun shows.

If your spring actually broke, there is a small access hole to drive the remaining part out of the extractor body.
  
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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #12 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 6:06pm
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Thanks for that picture!  I was wondering where it came from.  It broke off right where the shorter side wall stops.  Really odd!  I ordered it along with a new bolt a few minutes ago.  Hopefully I can manage to get it installed without breaking it!

You guys are fantastic here.  Really the best.
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #13 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 8:10pm
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Just A Thought - I wonder if the broken ejector-spring event could be related to using the OKIE head-space gauge with the striker mechanism still in the bolt?

(Although it has a relief notch, maybe the 'slightly magnetic' gauge shifted and the ejector was excessively pressed upward by the gauge)?

I know this is pretty farfetched, but, failure of this spring (or any Krag part) is a pretty rare occurrence.

Did you use the same gauges that you got for your 7.62X54R Mosin?

It is always good procedure to use a head-space gauge with a 'stripped' bolt and only gentle finger pressure.
  
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Preston
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Re: Bad head space
Reply #14 - Jan 14th, 2017 at 9:39pm
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No, I already had the proper head space gauge for a Mosin Nagant. I just got the gauge for 30-40 Krag and .303 yesterday which is the one I used.  It could be related to that. I'll replace the spring first and try the old bolt. 
  

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