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 10 Bought a Krag, where to start? (Read 7134 times)
Flatlander15
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Bought a Krag, where to start?
Jan 19th, 2017 at 12:53am
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Forgive me if this is obnoxious. It's a multi parter so bear with me. So I ended up purchasing my first Krag! It's a cut down (nicely) 1896. I've been reading as much as I can on reloading and casting bullets plus watching YouTube videos galore. Safety is my priority followed closely by doing it right the first time.

Immediately after the deal was done I purchased 50 unprimed 30-40 cartridges from Grafs.

Over the next few months I will be getting the necessary equipment to cast bullets, and reload the rounds. Here is where my confusion begins. I'm not exactly sure what to get. I'll be casting 50 bullets at a time so I don't *think* I'll need a large furnace.

I was thinking this
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What else aside from a dipper and skimmer do I really need?

What kind of lead is best for these old gals? Pure lead or a mix? I keep seeing people mention wheel weights so I'm more confused.

As to a mold, I will hold off until the bore gets slugged but I was thinking a two cavity mold. Are gas checks necessary? I was thinking round nose only since that is what it was designed for.

I'm only going to use the rifle for 50-100 yard plinking and want to have the lightest recoil possible. 2-5 inch groups will keep me more than happy. What combination of powder and bullet weight has worked for such a load? I know every rifle is different and I will need to tailor but a good base at the lowest end of power is a good starting point.


  
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Flatlander15
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #1 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 1:23am
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For dies I plan on there

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And for a press I will be getting this

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From research I keep seeing that if you only reload for one rifle, you only need to resize the neck. Ive read that with the lee full size resized you can adjust the die to only do the neck. Is that correct/easy to do? I'll probably only shoot 1-200 rounds of low power plinking ammo a year. How long does new brass usually last?

I'll be buying loading data, purchasing digital calipers and a primer pocket cleaner. What else am I missing aside from primers and powder?

Thank you in advance and sorry for being so long winded.


  
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Tom Butts
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:35am
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I have used a Lee turret press for years and have been very happy with it.
  
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RichWIS
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #3 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 3:36am
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Suggest a bottom pour, a bit faster and no handling dippers full of lead each casting session.  You will also need some way to size and lube the bullets.  Lee makes a kit and there is also the old Lyman/RCBS/SAECO sizer lubricators that size and lube in one operation. 

I cast with an old Lyman ten pound bottom pour pot and size and lube with a Lyman 450 sizer lubricator.  I size at .310 d use either Hornady or Gator gaschecks.  I have an old sporter that like the Lyman 311284 cast hard and pushed by 10 grains of Blue Dot.
I get the impression from your post that you are new to casting, if so go to the Cast Boolits forum, full of good info on tools, alloys, etc.
The moderate report and recoil with cast make the old Krags a lot of fun.  You might find that your 50 rounds becomes one trip to the range.
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #4 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 11:54am
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For what it's worth...  I've been using LEE Pacesetter 30-40 dies for more than 30 years now, as well as the same ole Challenger press, and I've never had a problem!  Yes, when keeping brass with the same rifle, it's always best to neck-size only.  I have brass that I keep designated for my cast Bench Rest Krag Sporter alone!

Madsenshooter got me going with cast, and he also casts my bullets for me.  He... along with Rich and others are a wealth of cast knowledge!  I shoot a NOE 311365 sized to .310 and at 185 gr gas checked.  I load these with 19.0 grains of AA-5744 and a CCI-200 primer.  I can almost plug the same hole twice at 200 yards with this round in my BR Sporter Krag (1898 cutdown to 24", Bishop Target stock, and with a KragHaus long mount and LER scope).  Recoil is quite modest with this round also!
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #5 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 5:54pm
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Flatlander15 wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 1:23am:
For dies I plan on there

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Flatlander, I'll make you a deal. I have an extra set of Lee dies that I will send you if you PM me a mailing address. It's not the Pacesetter dies as it is missing the Factory Crimp Die but it is a 2-die set complete with shell holder, scoop and paper insert. They were originally in a round 'box' but it will mail much easier in a flat one. Just let me know.
  
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Flatlander15
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #6 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 7:22pm
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That is very kind of you! I'll gladly pay for it. If you won't accept that then I will find something to pay it forward with.

I slugged the barrel today with an old lead sinker, did it per instructional guides and youtube videos. Seat, 7" sections of wooden dowel rod, lightly tap until it falls out. Then I ran out and got calipers.

Upon measuring, the diameter was between .3030 and .3070 after six or seven measurements all the way around at different points on the slug. Does this seem right? The barrel looks brand new, not a speck of frosting anywhere. There were also no loose spots when slugging and .

I keep reading on the 308-312 range is what people seem to use for bullets, would something as large as that be unsafe in the gun? This is all brand new to me so I'm trying to absorb like a sponge. The thought of shooting a 100+ year old rifle is exciting!
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #7 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 8:02am
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Flatlander, welcome.  There are lots of how-to videos, etc. but I think you are better off asking questions of guys who mess about with old rifles.  Since you slugged the barrel, hopefully with a SOFT lead sinker (no idea of the alloy, but if you could push it down the bore with a wood dowel, it is probably soft enough).  And you learned a lot with that all that tapping.  What sort of calipers were used for the groove measurement?  Some of the low end jobs do not do a good job.  You get what you pay for.  Most original Krag barrels run .307 to .312, but a lot of remodeled Krags have barrels from other sources.

On cast bullets:   Conventional wisdom says to use bullets about .002" oversize, to seal the bore & to prevent gas leaks around the bullet that cut the bullets & tend to leave lead the barrel.  I've been casting a long time (almost 70 years). I use a Lee bottom pour pot because it is easy to empty.  But I use a dipper with a nozzle.  Once you learn how to use the dipper, your bullets will be more uniform than from a bottom pour.  Use the dipper to stir the pot.  Flux early. 

Double cavity moulds mean greater variance & at least 2X as many rejects.  Single cavity moulds are lighter, easier to use and easier to keep at the right temperature.  Don't think you are only going to cast 50 and quit.  Your first 10+ will probably be rejects unless you have a really good custom-made mould.  Get an old bath towel & fold it double the long way.  Drop your first bullets at one end and keep dropping them in a line.  Cast 100+, when you are done, inspect and weigh each one. Keep notes.  The learning curve is steep.

Sizing dies & lubri-sizers are not necessary for beginners.  Pick a lube that can be melted in a double boiler and learn to pan lube.  That is good enough for starting.  Same thing for gas checks.  Those can come later.

Priming:  I use a Lyman 310 tool for my Krag loads.  You only have 50 cases. High capacity not needed.  More anon.

  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #8 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 8:32am
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Part 2 of my rant:  Primer pocket cleaners are nice, but a little flat-bladed screwdriver is just as good.

Lead:  Get a batch of known alloy lead, 20 parts lead to 1 part tin.  Or get a Lyman #2 alloy.  That has more tin and a smidge of antimony. You can shoot #2 faster than 20:1 lead.  I buy from Rotometals.  They are good folks to deal with.  Stay away from wheel weights, dive weights & fish sinkers.  That is unknown crap.  You can ruin a good pot in a hurry.  That crappy alloy cannot be good for your rifle barrel.

Loading press:  You are loading a few Krag cartridges, not mass production for some auto-jammer. 1950s technology does fine.  I bought a Herter's C press (made by Pacific) in 1958.  I've had others & got rid of them.  Still use the Herter's, with the RCBS shell-holder kit.  The other guys like Lee dies.  I prefer C-H 4D.  It is just personal choice.  RCBS is unnecessarily expensive.

Powder:  Cast bullets in a Krag is jumping back a century, back to steam engines, passenger trains & Model A Fords.  Most new manuals are for jacketed bullets & high velocity.  Find 3 or 4 old manuals, plus Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading (1937) (available on the net).  Look for loads in the 1300-1500 fps range.  Think about starting with IMR powders, because they were used in the 1930s.  Get yourself a relative burning rate list.  Remember that fast powders & heavy bullets in a Krag case can lead to problems if you overdo it.

Some of the handiest things you can get or make are wooden cartridge blocks.  They hold the cases rim down, just by sticking the case in a hole in the wood, so you can complete one step in loading on all your cases and then move on to the next step.

You need a good scale for weighing each charge of powder, and a funnel for pouring the weighed charge into the case.

Be sure to keep notes on everything.  And get a couple of good cartridge boxes to take your loads to the range.  Take more notes & save your targets.
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #9 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 1:56pm
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As for primer pocket cleaning, there's another option if you have the equipment:  If you have a Dremel rotary tool, get yourself a few No.405 brass end brushes.  This really cleans the pockets... and quickly.  You could also use the bristle end brush but they wear out very fast (after a dozen cases or so).  Do NOT use steel because they will wear away the brass and destroy the pockets.  I've been cleaning my pockets this way for several years now.
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #10 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 8:08pm
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Where to begin for a beginner?  Good advice above.  A known alloy is good, Lyman #2 will get you up to full Krag velocity and makes pretty bullets.  311284, from NOE Bullet Molds is a good choice.  They'll feed well in about any Krag.  Slugging, you'll get different measurements because there are two dimensions you're after.  Bore diameter will be the smaller measurement, you're measuring the distance from the top of one land to the top of the one opposite it, generally .301 on Krag barrels, but variable. Biggest thing this dimension is useful is if you have a boreriding bullet, you want the borerider to be the same as bore diameter or a few thousandths larger.  Groove diameter is the big measure, and that's the one you want to fill with your bullets.  In Krags that will run anywhere from .307-.314 with the majority being .310.  Oversize lead bullets do raise pressure some, but not nearly as much as an oversized jacketed bullet.  I have some interesting examples loaded that came out .3145 after sizing and lubing.  I found they just fit an unsized Remington 30-40 caseneck.  I can almost seat them with my fingers.  Need to get some range time to shoot em. Simplest sizing is the Lee push through dies, but you need to get the right size. Gas blowing past a bullet will lead up your bore quickly. Down side of the Lee push through is you still need to lube the bullets somehow. I will sometimes lube at a larger diameter than what I'm going to use, if I'm going for .311 I'll lube with a .312 size and lube die (or larger if the bullet casts larger), then finish by pushing the bullet through a .311 sizer. I know you're trying to get it all at once, but there's a lot to know and experience is the best teacher. Little steps at a time, and that goes for the velocities too. If you start out with full velocity loads, chances are you won't be happy with the results, get frustrated and quit. You can PM me anytime you want, either here, or on castboolits.com, with the same username
  
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Flatlander15
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #11 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 2:59pm
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Thanks all for the help. I just ordered a Lee Big Dipper furnace, ladle,

This (You need to Login to view media files and links),

This (You need to Login to view media files and links), and [url][/url]

And Midways hardball 2% Tin, 6% Antimony, 92% Lead alloy. My Krag is at the smiths. Unfortunately, after calling every smith in a 1.5 hour radius and not a single one has the 30-40 headspace gauges. I'm sill having it slugged so if i need to fine tune the bullet size and get a new mold so be it.

I figure, I might as well learn how to cast in the meantime and save up for the press, lube and sizer, shell length guide and trimmer, powder, primers, various dies and whatnot later next month. The .309 double mold won't be much of a loss if it's not the right size.

I also got the 38/357 mold to start reloading 38 special for a Rossi 92. Why not, right? Lastly, the alloy seemed a bit expensive when comparing to... Well, anywhere else, but I already had a order with them and it only added $1.00 for shipping. Once I get the hang of basic casting I'll order a larger quantity of Lyman #2 alloy. I'm going to hit up the second hand stores here to get something for skimming the impurities and a old cookie sheet that I'll line with a towel for the bullets to cool off on.

This is exciting!
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #12 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 8:07pm
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If the .309 isn't big enough, there's a couple 7.62x39 or .303 molds that will throw one big enough.  The tumble lube bullet shoots pretty good from mine.

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Flatlander15
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 12:44am
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Ok so some unfortunate events happened to fall upon one of the dogs and priorities have been temporarily shifted. I sold unused molds, ingots, furnace, dipper, etc etc before I got to use them. Could be much worse.

I got my Krag back from the smith who had it for slugging. The measurements he gave me are .302 and .3085

I've got 50 unprimed cases, and a Lee loading kit on layaway so casting will be in the distant future and I will start with just buying components and rolling my own.

Based on these measurements, what bullets would anybody recommend for making the lightest recoiling plinking rounds?

My head is spinning when it comes to dimensions and I'm probably over thinking again.

Would these work? - (You need to Login to view media files and links)

I probably won't ever shoot 500 rounds out of it in my lifetime but for 11 cents per bullet I won't complain.

How about these?
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One reviewer said he loaded them for light 30-30 plinking loads so maybe it could work?

Sorry for all the questions, and thank you in advance. I'll try to absorb as much as I can.
  
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Re: Bought a Krag, where to start?
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 2:01pm
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If all you are intending to do is some plinking and target shooting, then why the cast?  Why not standard jacketed bullets?  If you want light loads, you could shoot a Hornady 150 gr RN bullet, which should run around $25 for 100 bullets.  I have a friend who shoots these in CMP matches with his 1896, and routinely WINS the matches!  His load are light enough so that the recoil in the off hand position is quite manageable.
  
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