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 10 Chamber differences and tough to close bolt (Read 4359 times)
CoRifleman
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Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Jun 16th, 2020 at 8:20pm
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Hey all, I'm not going to add anything super earth shattering here, but I hope it helps the next guy.

I have a 1898 Krag Rifle and cut down sporter.  I've previously fired a handful of R-P brass reloads and Win brass factory ammo in the rifle with no issues.  When I went to full length resize the rifle fired ammo in my press, I had difficulty at the end of the stroke as the die works the shoulder of the case.

When I went to chamber those rounds in the carbine, the bolt would close approx 1/4 of the travel and then required some greater force to finish.

I marked the shoulder area with a sharpie and tried again and had a bright ring at the case edge of the shoulder.  I tried sanding a bit off of a shell holder that I had and repressing them, but I just couldn't get that shoulder to move without a LOT of effort, and even then, the bolt didn't want to close easily.

I read on here about annealing, and tried my hand at it.  I took the cases, torched the ends pretty good and then doused them in water.  Afterwards I trimmed the cases to length and ran them through the die again, with the sanded AND the factory shell holder.  Both shell holders produced a shoulder without interference to the chamber and the bolt closed with very little additional efffort, if any at all.

I now know that my rifle and carbine have different chamber depths, and to keep my brass separate between the two.  If I run into an issue, reforming the shoulder and pushing it back on a fire formed case is INIFITELY easier if you anneal it first.
« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2020 at 9:45pm by CoRifleman »  
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FredC
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #1 - Jun 16th, 2020 at 9:12pm
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Any chance the sizing die or shell holder is deforming the rim? Could you chamber the brass again before resizing? If you can rechamber the fired case after firing but not after resizing I think your die or shell holder are to blame.

When I annealed my cases after forming them to 35 caliber I worked real hard not to anneal the shoulder. On a Krag annealing the shoulder is not so dangerous as on a bottle neck cartridge, but personally I do not think it is good practice.
  
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CoRifleman
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #2 - Jun 16th, 2020 at 9:42pm
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Hey Fred, thank you.

I suppose I could try a different die.  I had two shell holders, both produced the same results, so I sanded one and mic'd the edges to make sure I was "flat".  That produced a shell that was pressed further into the die and perhaps moved the shoulder a little, but not completely, and not enough to chamber easily.  Annealing, and the running through the die produced a case that chambered easily.  Without annealing, the cases didn't want to chamber easily.

If I recall correctly, I think I DID chamber a round after annealing but before reforming and even that action was easier than prior to annealing.

Maybe the last thing to try is just get some brand new R-P brass and try to chamber it, and even try to full length size it before firing and see if there's resistance at the shoulder.

I think (and I may be wrong) this is just an example where my rifle chamber is deeper than the carbine chamber and the fireformed rifle case is just that much difficult to get back to "stock" chamber spec.  If I'm wrong, I'm all ears.   Smiley
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #3 - Jun 16th, 2020 at 10:41pm
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'CoRifleman' - It is not unusual for two rifles in the same caliber to have differences in their chambers and for one with a tighter chamber to not accept a 'fired' cartridge case from the other.

This is usually resolved by full-length resizing.

I would suspect that possibly your F.L. Resizing Die is the culprit.

I just neck-size my brass and have the amazing good fortune that the neck-sized cases will inter-change between eight different Krags!

Easiest solution might be to just keep brass segregated for each of your Krags and try just neck-sizing. (Just loosen your F.L. Die one turn in the press).

If you want to experiment, try switching bolts and see if it makes a difference. (One of your Krags could have slightly tighter 'head-space').

(p.s. Is your 'cut-down' a model 1898 or a model 1896? There was a dimensional change made in the 1898 chambers).
  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #4 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 4:01am
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I just experienced this today to a similar degree. Shot the same  low powered cast load for the first time in my 1898 original rifle and sporter with a new Criterion barrel and then full length sized the cases upon returning home and noticed half of them required an extra push at the bottom to resize fully. I had annealed these cases a couple loadings ago which apparently allowed them to resize with just the additional effort. These were FL sized for this last loading as I was planning to shoot in both rifles from the get go.  Have no way of knowing which cases came from which rifle and these chambers were obviously reamed over a century apart with different tooling so differences in chamber dimensions can be expected. Next time I will segregate them to tell for sure.

When I anneal I hold the case rim with fingers and a rat tail file stuck in the case held in the other hand to evenly rotate the neck over a candle until the rim is too uncomfortable to hold which prevents overheating compared to some other methods.

This picture of 10 of the 30 cases fired shows a ring at the neck/shoulder junction of the cases requiring the shoulder to be bumped back a bit compared to the others. These are Remington cases from the same bag.
  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #5 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 5:22am
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FredC wrote on Jun 16th, 2020 at 9:12pm:
. . . On a Krag annealing the shoulder is not so dangerous as on a bottle neck cartridge, but personally I do not think it is good practice.

1. The Krag cartridge is a "bottle neck" design.
2. I'm guessing the distinction you intended to make is between rimmed and rimless bottleneck cartridges.
3. It's standard practice for manufacturers to apply a final anneal to neck and shoulder of all new bottleneck cases. For commercial sale, the resultant color gradient is polished off afterwards - but for military contracts it is retained as evidence of the anneal. The unfired US military cartridge shown in the attached photo shows the annealed portion clearly extending about 1/4" past the shoulder - as is normal.

CoRifleman - The sizing difficulties you describe may be the result of inadequate lube and/or insufficient die adjustment. Many of the products currently marketed as case lube are pretty poor. Try plain, cheap castor oil, applied sparingly with fingers or lube pad and see if it helps. In addition, be sure to screw the sizer die at least 1/8 turn beyond simple contact with the shoulder to compensate for press flex under sizing stress. Look carefully where die and shellholder meet during actual sizing. If there's a visible gap as in second image below, that's press flex.

(The first image below shows sizing a .30-06 case down to 7.65x53, done easily in a single pass with castor oil lube.)
  
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CoRifleman
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #6 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 2:34pm
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Butlers - Both the rifle and cut down are 1898 ALTHOUGH the bolt in the carbine is a 1896.  So it certainly could be a tighter headspace, although that would mean the 1898 bolt in the 1898 rifle is holding the shell rim further away from the chamber - as the 1898 closed easily and the 1896 met resistance.  Does that make sense?  I can try it sometime, but I resized all of my brass as I don't shoot the rifle very often at all (it's correct, and in wonderful condition).  Also, I don't know how the sizing die could be the cuplrit.  After annealing, the sizing die easily and quickly produced a case that fit right into the chamber with no additional effort when closing the bolt.  the other resizing I do is 223 to 300blk and although it's a smaller case, I'm generally familiar with resizing and the effort required.  This shoulder would. not. budge!  I appreciate your insight.  I will try to swap bolts at some point, and if that resolves it, I may change over to a 1898 bolt in the carbine if for no reason other than it will allow interchangability of brass.  Thank you for the idea.

Mavt - Thank you - it was beyond strange.  Just didn't make sense, until I read about chamber differences between Krags and other problems with sizing.  I'll stick to neck sizing from here on out when I can.

Para - Thank you.  I tried three different lubes to be sure.  Lee, Imperial Wax, and Hornady One Shot Case lube.  I've resized a TON of 223 to 300blk and have learned about using not too little, not too much case lube, so I altered my approach a bit here and there as I was having these issues.  Nothing made a difference.  The die was adjusted to touch, then ram lowered, then turned in another 1/3 to 1/2, so plenty of allowance for flex.  The shoulder just did not want to move.  It was bizarre.  Until I run into the issue again, I don't know that I'll be able to troubleshoot it more.
  
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FredC
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #7 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 2:48pm
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Typing while trying to think sometimes causes wrong things to come out, whoops. I have seen those colors past the shoulder. I wonder if they represent a full anneal on the shoulder as the material is heavier there and may not have been exposed to heat as long.
As Parashooter mentioned, I thought of lubrication. A reloader using premium pistol resizing dies with titanium nitride or carbide inserts does not need to use lubricant and might get caught with a problem on Krag cases.
On my sporter the chamber just in front of the rim was undersized. New cases would just barely load, rounds that had been resized with either 30/40 or 35/40 dies would chamber with difficulty and extract with extreme difficulty. Doubt that is the problem here, but something else to check if other things are not helping.

To rule out a bad die misshaping the case, I thought an experiment of firing a new round then opening an closing the bolt on the fired round may tell you something. If you can do that with not much difficulty then resizing makes it worse, the problem would seem to be the die.

From CoRifleMan's original description I was not sure if the problem was cases going back into the same Krag or interchanging between the sporter and rifle. The unusual effort of sizing relatively new cases seemed to indicate a problem other that need for annealing. Maybe I misunderstood and these were cases loaded 20 times.

Annealing is usually recommended to prevent case neck splitting and best applied a couple of reloadings before the necks do start splitting. Maybe more often for target shooters to maintain a consistent neck tension.

Maybe I am thinking while typing again and all this is off again?
  
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CoRifleman
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #8 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 3:20pm
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Fred, I appreciate the time responding! 

The cases were a mix.  The R-P had been loaded previously, but I do NOT know how many times.  I doubt many.  They were a gift with the rifle from a dear uncle.

The Winchester cases were from a box of ammo that was fired once (some in the rifle, some in this carbine), then resized this time to reload.

I had the same issue between the RP & Winchester - but ONLY the ones that had been fired in the rifle first.  For example, a new in box winchester round that was fired in the carbine then sized and chambered in the carbine easily.  the Winchester or R-P that went in the rifle first, then in the sizer, then in the carbine just didn't want to go.

It's ENTIRELY possible that due to difficulty in sizing those rounds (the rifle fired cases) that the sizer didn't push the shoulder back to a factory spec.  Once softened, however, the sizer easily pushed them back to spec and they chambered in carbine without pause.

I suppose this may be moreso an issue with the rifle having a deep chamber than the carbine having a short one... Smiley
  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #9 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 4:24pm
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'CoRifleman' - I was not saying anything was defective.

Things are built to different tolerances: Reloading Dies, cartridge brass, rifle chambers, and rifle bolts.

Rifles are subject to differences in the amount of use and wear they receive.

The manufacturer standards for .30-40 Dies were established about 30 years after Springfield Armory built its last Krag!

I imagine there are differences in the dimensions used by each Die Manufacturer.
There will be differences in each set of .30-40 Dies made by the same manufacturer.

A rifle cartridge Die Maker has to make a product to accommodate chambers made by Springfield Armory, Remington, Winchester, Harry Pope, and Ruger.

A cartridge manufacturer has to size their brass to chamber in just about any .30-40 chamber ever made.

Brass gets "work hardened" and more brittle with being reformed and with age. Annealing the case-neck and shoulder restores 'pliability'.

FWIW - If you have a Die that is toward the maximum in dimensions and a rifle chamber/bolt combination that is at the minimum of dimensions, you may have a problem with reformed brass, (that was fired in a different gun with a more 'liberal' chamber), fitting the tighter or shorter chamber.
Trying a different set of Dies or a slightly different dimensioned Bolt may correct the 'clash of tolerances'.

There were minor changes made by Springfield Armory to the dimensions of U.S. Krag chambers in 1899. There was a change of .002 or .003 inches in head diameter and length from breech-face to shoulder. (Information attached).

Currently, I only have to separate brass for one of my Krags, a model 1896 rifle with a chamber that allows more expansion of the cartridge-case body.

My other Krags get fed reloads that are partially 'neck-sized' with a LEE - Collet Die for 7.5X55mm Swiss, no lube necessary. Once in a while, I may close the Bolt on a reloaded round with slight resistance, but, no problem.

I'm lazy and it ain't rapid-fire at Camp Perry!
« Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2020 at 5:44pm by butlersrangers »  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #10 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 4:29pm
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Any chance the rifle has some kind of improved chamber, with correct rim thickness and a deepened chamber?
On firing the shoulder blows out a bunch and you have to move it way back to fit the sporter?
Not sure if there were any Ackley improved reamers for 30/40. Maybe some kind of wild cat?
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #11 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 4:54pm
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Note - Per Mallory - The change in chamber dimensions occurred at around serial number 213,000.

If Mallory was correct, Model 1898 Krags (below that number), and model 1896 & model 1892 Krags, may have more liberally dimension-ed chambers.

FWIW - (Re-barreled Krags can totally different. I use to have a model 1898 'cut-down', that was put together by Sedgley. The replacement barrel was made from a (1905 dated) 1903 Springfield barrel. The tight chamber would accept factory ammo and my F.L. resized cases. It would not accept a 'fired case' from any of my other Krags).
« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2020 at 5:56pm by butlersrangers »  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #12 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 8:17pm
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BR,
Can you clarify which is the old and which is the new chamber. It looks like the top one is showing a recess for the rim. All the 1898s (total of 3) that I have seen are later than the 213000. They do not have the rim recess. Did early have the recess? If so the late bolts will not fit in the early receivers?

To add confusion the SAAMI drawings all show the recess. So you have to subtract the rim thickness to compare them. Not sure if you subtract the Maximum thickness or an average thickness. Neither seems to work out. If I am understanding your drawing the dimension changed by .030, which is huge.
  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #13 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 9:03pm
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FredC: I have separated the drawings to make it clearer: Old vs. New.

The Krag chamber was never recessed for the rim. The old drawing could give that impression, so I have eliminated the confusing shade areas.

Good eye on the .030" dimensional difference! Old Ordnance Dept. Mistake?

I suspect, the difference may actually be .003".
  
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Re: Chamber differences and tough to close bolt
Reply #14 - Jun 17th, 2020 at 10:21pm
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Any chance the drawing is for proposed changes that never made it into production? The radius on the outside is not on my barrels. I made a detailed drawing with lengths and diameters that was sent to Pacnor for making my barrel. The taper ended where the parallel 1 inch diameter started.
Looking at the SAAMI drawing of both the cartridge and chamber they have a .155 radius at the corner we have been discussing. I did not measure it on the 30/40 Remington cases on hand but it is there. That radius makes it much more difficult to see where that now theoretical line is (1.65/1.62).  Again on the SAAMI drawing neither worked out on the math.
All said and done the SAAMI specs do not have to match the original SA drawings or actual dimension of the finished product. Just safe in practice with most firearms manufactured. If the .030 difference is real could explain part of CoRofleMan's difficulty. Just hope his rifle was not reamed for 30-06 blanks.
  
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