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 25 Barrel Band for Krag Sporter (Read 27484 times)
FredC
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #30 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:54pm
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We are kind of waiting to hear from Jim how thick the stock is out there around 12.5 inches. He will need to carve out a 1/2 deep hole about 3/4 wide and about 9/16 lengthwise under the barrel.
Dick, how thick would the stock need to be so a 1/2 round escutcheon would not pull through the stock when the barrel band is tightened? Maybe 1/4 inch? From the photo I am not sure he had that much, that is why I thought of the elongated escutcheon.
You will have a lot more experience that me on how to do stock work without machine tools. I am thinking out loud here, I could take short piece of steel the size of the barrel and drill a precisely square and centered hole though it. This bar could be clamped into the stock fore end and after lining it up, the 3/16 or 1/4  hole could be drilled the stock. The rectangular hole under the barrel fudged out with a Dremel and burr bits.
Not sure if a piloted 1/2 drill could be found commercially or if it would have to be fabricated. Careful use of a hand drill or drill press could do the inset for the escutcheon. I like that word I wanted to call it a washer, ferrule or something else. Now I need to learn how to pronounce it and spell it without copying and pasting.
I have a bunch of steel bar ends, making a oversize  escutcheon to fit the hole with a tight hole for the screw can be done in minutes. Since Jim has time maybe with others input we can figure out how to do this easily.
Those saddle rings on carbine stock, I know the SA would have done them with a dedicated machine how would a stock maker do it without a milling machine? 
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #31 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:01am
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I'm basing my thoughts on something I saw in the Rifleman from the 40's or 50's when Krag were hot topics for sporterizing. To be sure, vertical spacing under the barrel is limited. That is why I like the simple strap, overlapped at the bottom, with a trapezoidal nut above it - the whole thing should take up no more than 9/16" or so. By inserting the block between the straight strap ends, and pinning it on the sides, a huge amount of valuable space seems to be wasted, at least to my eye.

The screw might have to be home-made. If you were going to fit QD swivels like Uncle Mike's, you'd need to drill a hole through the shaft of course. Or, perhaps such base screws are available commercially. You also need a shoulder to draw against the escutcheon (es-CUTCH-en). I suspect some such have a wood thread which is fine for a modern forend, but no good for us. Screw length would have to be figured very carefully, probably by trial and error, as you need to be hard against the 1/8" inch or so escutcheon, fully engaged in the nut, yet not touching the barrel.

As to the swivel bar, without a jig and mills, you'd have to be very careful; it would be tough to get it right - that is why, when you have doubts about a "carbine" (talking trapdoors here mainly) one of the first things you look at is the bar inletting. Were I to do it, I'd first locate the hole centers VERY carefully, drill them (slightly undersize) with an old-fashioned brace and bit, then finish the cut VERY slowly with chisels and scrapers. I don't know any other way to do it.

This has been a great discussion!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #32 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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I would use a simpler & smaller 'nut' and remove as little wood as possible.

Maybe an inside threaded metal tube with a cross pin, peened-over on the ends, to mate and  interlock with the Savage  barrel-band.

The threaded-tube could serve as a kind of pillar and be trimmed to length. I would file a radius or 'V' on the top of the tube. Its length would have been adjusted so that when assembled to the band and slid to the desired place up the barrel taper, it would eventually contact the barrel and 'lock' into a semi-firm vertical position.

The threaded-tube would also be adjusted to control the depth it penetrates into the Stock forearm. A stepped hole in Stock would accommodate the threaded-tube while allowing a bottom anchor screw to bear against wood.

Some wood removal would be necessary to clear the legs of the Savage band. If the legs angle inward instead of being parrallel, less wood removal is necessary.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #33 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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Another option would be to forget the band and dovetail a stud right into the barrel. The "stock stud" for a Winchester 67 could be about right.

(You need to Login to view media files and links) Image from Numrich inventory.
  
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FredC
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #34 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:49pm
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Parashooter,
I have one of those 67 Winchesters. It was my mother's gun and given to me when I was 8! Would not be politically correct to give a child a rifle today.
It would certainly require a smaller hole to fit that into a Krag stock. Also it is fairly strong as I do not think any looseness has developed in mine. I can think of a couple of down sides,
Driving that dovetailed stud into the barrel will cause stress on the barrel actually bending it. How much? I do not know. Now we are back to a machinist or gunsmith doing the work.
I would like to this to be something a careful person with a few hand tools could do in the garage and get professional looking results.
When Dick mentioned using a brace and bit, it gave me an idea on a couple of hand cranked cutters that would make the job easy with the Savage band. Did a search for inletting for this Savage band and found nothing but saw a photo of bedding done on both sides afterward. Not a bad idea if Jim's stock is free floated in that area. Also I found mention of barrel bands being added to Krags and the reason it was a good idea but that was it.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #35 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 6:40pm
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FredC wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:49pm:
. . .a couple of down sides,
Driving that dovetailed stud into the barrel will cause stress on the barrel actually bending it. How much? I do not know. Now we are back to a machinist or gunsmith doing the work.
I would like to this to be something a careful person with a few hand tools could do in the garage and get professional looking results.

If the dovetail were cut for a sliding fit (rather than driven), it might not bend the barrel. Also seems zillions of rear sights have been tightly dovetailed into barrels without ill effect.
I've cut a few barrel dovetails using nothing more than triangular files. (Might be ugly but would be hidden inside forestock.) Barrel steel is usually pretty easy to hand file.
  
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FredC
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #36 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:43pm
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Parashooter,
You are right they are a slip fit not pressed in. Mine looks nothing like the photo. Mine is .405 x .502 inches, the dovetail in the barrel is almost twice as deep as a sight dovetail at 1/8. Also mine is not reduced in size as the photo, same size all the way to the end. If anyone wants to try this the threads in mine are #12 fine thread.
It has been 40 years since I took mine apart when I put the scope on it. The electrical friction tape repair was done before I got it and maybe before my mother got it also. Well you gave me an incentive to clean and lube it. Thanks.
Went back and looked at the parts assembly photo, completely different, on mine the spring goes through a hole in this dovetail stud. That is why my stud looks so much larger than the photo.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #37 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:07pm
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Winchester modified the stock stud design over the years. Early ones are as you describe, like the old Model 68 in this photo -
  
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RomeoJim
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #38 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:02am
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Hi FredC and All,

Sorry for late reply. Tried to get on the forum this morning from my office today, but forgot my password and after several tries decided to wait until I got home. The issue for my dad's old Model 1899 sporter is that trying to measure the stock 12.5 inches fro the receiver puts it beyond the actual length of the forestock. I have enclosed a photo. From one of the previous posts the barrel diameter may be too large to accommodate the band. At the 11" the stock is .801" deep and 1.310" wide. Plan B?
  
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Parashooter
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #39 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:13am
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RomeoJim wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:02am:
. . . Plan B?

See reply #33 above for one "Plan B".
  
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FredC
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #40 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 3:07pm
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Jim,
At what point were you wanting to attach the sling swivel?  I would think You would want to be on the actual wood and not the black extension. With the thin area under the magazine box I think the attachment point from the barrel and stock ought to be close together if not 2 widely separated points of stress could bend or break the stock in the weak area.  You never plan to fall when carrying a rifle but it does happen.
Parashooter's idea with the smaller Win #67 dovetailed nut is not a bad solution. Out there around 8 or 9 inches the barrel is even thicker and if it is also OK for your swivel location it could work.
Another thing that was done in days gone by was installing a "beauty ring" next to the receiver, it was a steel tapered tube and some had lugs welded to the bottom for attachment a point for a screw was run through the bottom of the stock. the beauty ring made the transition from the receiver diameter to the barrel a little more graceful but it would be a long way from your swivel attachment point. 
Will you attempt to do this your self or have a gunsmith do it? Do you already have files, drill bits, a hand drill, maybe an old fashioned brace and bit, a vice big enough to hold the stock plus padding. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, I think I could do as Parashooter mentioned, file a flat bottomed groove in the barrel then do the dovetail cuts with a triangular file with a ground safe edge. If you have a nearby machine shop they will have bar ends you could practice on if not I can send you a couple. If you do not already have all this stuff, it might be less expensive to have a gunsmith do it.
  
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RomeoJim
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #41 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 12:59am
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Thanks FredC and everyone else for all of your input on this issue.

I found the item pictured below on ebay a while back but had rejected it because it would require the use an old fashioned military style sling with simple loops for the forestock which eliminates quick disconnection as an option and in addition would require some significant and rather precise modification of the stock to install. Butlersrangers ad posted a photo of a similar fix using a 1903 band earlier. The seller on ebay had this part listed as originally belonging to a Krag, though I'm uncertain if it actually is. However, it may be possible to make this part work with some careful stock modification. Any ideas?
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #42 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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Hi Jim,

This project of mine is far from completion but since we're on the subject of barrel bands I thought I'd jump on the band wagon.

The stock is an old aftermarket and the rifle is a cut down 1898 krag.

I'm shooting for a sporterized military scout style kinda look which will eventually include a long eye relief scope.

I'm still shaping and roughing things out, however, this is what I've got so far.

I used/attached ebony wood to the end of the forearm and pistol grip heel and I'm in the process of fitting the barrel band.

Eventually I'm going to inlet the back of the stock for a sling swivel.
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2018 at 3:18pm by Local Boy »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #43 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:18pm
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Nothing wrong with a Krag rifle barrel-band and a full width sling.
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Barrel Band for Krag Sporter
Reply #44 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:37pm
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I'm thinking about maybe finally using that African Nile Crocodile sling I purchased a few years back... or is it alligator? Undecided

Nah!... Maybe not.
  
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