Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Send TopicPrint
 25 Headspace on 1898 (Read 8864 times)
CHUCKW
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15th, 2019
Headspace on 1898
Sep 16th, 2019 at 12:48pm
Print Post  
Hey all,

This is my first post here.

I just checked the headspace on my 1898 with Clymer go, no-go gauges and the bolt closed on both. Is there a fix for this? I have not fired this gun but would like to. Hope someone can help. Undecided
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
madsenshooter
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 1079
Joined: Sep 10th, 2009
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #1 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 1:41pm
Print Post  
A different bolt body, maybe.  That's about all that could be out of spec, that and/or wear on the breechface, which should be readily visible.  That's what you're really checking, the space between boltface and breechface.  The distance to shoulder has nothing to do with headspace in the Krag.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Parashooter
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Kragmudgeon

Posts: 514
Location: Connecticut
Joined: Feb 4th, 2010
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #2 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:44pm
Print Post  
An .067" No-Go gauge isn't exactly appropriate for checking headspace on a rifle that has been in use for a while. For that purpose, the .070" Field gauge is the one to choose. (Adding a .003" metal shim to the .067" No-Go can do the trick without buying another gauge.)

When checking with a gauge, be sure to remove the firing mechanism from the bolt to eliminate distracting resistance and not to apply any more than very light pressure when trying to close the bolt. If you encounter any resistance at all before the handle is fully down, it means that measured headspace is smaller than the gauge dimension.

(Standard Go and No-Go gauges are appropriate when fitting new barrels - not really useful for checking used assemblies.)
« Last Edit: Sep 16th, 2019 at 6:05pm by Parashooter »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #3 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:00pm
Print Post  
Parashoooter's info is correct, the no/go is for a newly installed barrel. With an installation where the no/go almost fit the bolt and receiver lugs will wear with time so that it the no/go gauge will go later. Field gauge I think is meant to be used as a limit for guns with wear.

Checking with a field gauge would be more appropriate.

Madsenshooter's comment about a new bolt is one possible cure as it will remove 1/2 of the wear of the bolt/receiver interface. New bolts are readily available.
You might keep an eye on this thread as more useful info will be coming:    (You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #4 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 5:12pm
Print Post  
FWIW - My "Field" Gauge is a 'knock-off' and measures .073".

None of nine Krag bolts close on it.

Brass 'fired' in those nine rifles, carbines, and cut-down rifles will chamber in each other, with one exception.

The 'exception' is a model 1896 rifle that has a slightly larger diameter chamber, but, not excessive 'head-space'.
(I did put a 'new - old stock' model 1896 bolt in that rifle, because it came to me with a model 1898 bolt, that would close on my 'Field' Gauge ... problem solved).

P.S. - When checking 'Head-Space', I always strip the Bolt as Parashooter suggests.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CHUCKW
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15th, 2019
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #5 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:14pm
Print Post  
Parashooter wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
An .067" No-Go gauge isn't exactly appropriate for checking headspace on a rifle that has been in use for a while. For that purpose, the .070" Field gauge is the one to choose. (Adding a .003" metal shim to the .067" No-Go can do the trick without buying another gauge.)

When checking with a gauge, be sure to remove the firing mechanism from the bolt to eliminate distracting resistance and not to apply any more than very light pressure when trying to close the bolt. If you encounter any resistance at all before the handle is fully down, it means that measured headspace is smaller than the gauge dimension.

(Standard Go and No-Go gauges are appropriate when fitting new barrels - not really useful for checking used assemblies.)


I removed the extractor and checked with the go, no-go gauges but you say it would be more appropriate to check with a field gauge?  There maybe hope for me yet. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Local Boy
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 462
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Joined: Sep 24th, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #6 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 9:21pm
Print Post  
Hi CHUCKW,

Just recently purchased a new old stock (NOS) 1898 bolt body from Grandpa's gun parts for $55.00.

Fixed my head space issue.

The original bolt would easily close using both GO/NO GO headspace gauges.

I didn't have a FIELD gauge but I figured what the heck!

BTW: I also recently checked the head spacing on my .303 Enfields and found one that appeared to fail the NO GO gauge.  Turns out it was just my visual prospective.  I was viewing the bolt looking down thinking it closed completely.  Turning it sideways I noticed that the bolt had actually not fully closed!
« Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2019 at 3:40am by Local Boy »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Parashooter
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Kragmudgeon

Posts: 514
Location: Connecticut
Joined: Feb 4th, 2010
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #7 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 9:25pm
Print Post  
Chuck - Which gauge to use depends on the rifle's condition. If it has a new, unfired barrel, the .067" No-Go is the one to use. If the arm has been fired a bit, the .070" Field gauge is indicated. In addition, it should be OK with good ammo if it passes on an .073" or .074" gauge.

I suspect you don't yet have a solid background in headspace and its effects. You might benefit from the article at (You need to Login to view media files and links) - written about .303 British but largely applicable to US Krags.

My favorite quote from Gen. Hatcher:

"If there is excess headspace, the case will be stretched; if the headspace is too excessive, the case will be separated . . . where the thick brass in the base of the case begins to thin out as it joins the walls. When the gun is opened, the base of the cartridge will come out with the extractor, but the forward part of the case will remain wedged in the chamber and the gun cannot be used again until this is removed. . . With good strong actions and moderate pressure loads, and especially if shooting glasses are worn, this trouble is not particularly dangerous, but is annoying and inconvenient. Very little, if any, gas escapes to the rear, because the back end of the cartridge, which remains in the chamber, acts as a seal. In fact, it is just such short brass cups that the Germans have for years used as the breech seals in their heavy artillery . . .

"Our riflemen are used to measuring the headspace of their rifles by thousandths, and are prone to become very much alarmed if the headspace gauges two or three thousandths of an inch more than the normal maximum. This is a good safe attitude to take, but it is something like measuring cordwood with a micrometer. . ."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CHUCKW
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15th, 2019
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #8 - Sep 17th, 2019 at 12:55am
Print Post  
Local Boy wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
Hi CHUCKW,

Just recently purchased a new old stock (NOS) 1898 bolt body from Grandpa's gun parts for $55.00.

Fixed my head space issue.


The original bolt would easily close using both GO/NO GO headspace gauges.

I didn't have a FIELD gauge but I figured what the heck!

BTW: I also recently checked the head spacing on my .303 Enfields and found one that appeared to fail the NO GO gauge.  Turns out it was just my visual prospective.  I was viewing the bolt looking down thinking it closed completely.  Turning it sideways I notice that the bolt had actually not fully closed!



Thanks, Local Boy for the tip.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CHUCKW
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15th, 2019
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #9 - Sep 17th, 2019 at 12:57am
Print Post  
Parashooter wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
Chuck - Which gauge to use depends on the rifle's condition. If it has a new, unfired barrel, the .067" No-Go is the one to use. If the arm has been fired a bit, the .070" Field gauge is indicated. In addition, it should be OK with good ammo if it passes on an .073" or .074" gauge.

I suspect you don't yet have a solid background in headspace and its effects. You might benefit from the article at (You need to Login to view media files and links) - written about .303 British but largely applicable to US Krags.

My favorite quote from Gen. Hatcher:

"If there is excess headspace, the case will be stretched; if the headspace is too excessive, the case will be separated . . . where the thick brass in the base of the case begins to thin out as it joins the walls. When the gun is opened, the base of the cartridge will come out with the extractor, but the forward part of the case will remain wedged in the chamber and the gun cannot be used again until this is removed. . . With good strong actions and moderate pressure loads, and especially if shooting glasses are worn, this trouble is not particularly dangerous, but is annoying and inconvenient. Very little, if any, gas escapes to the rear, because the back end of the cartridge, which remains in the chamber, acts as a seal. In fact, it is just such short brass cups that the Germans have for years used as the breech seals in their heavy artillery . . .

"Our riflemen are used to measuring the headspace of their rifles by thousandths, and are prone to become very much alarmed if the headspace gauges two or three thousandths of an inch more than the normal maximum. This is a good safe attitude to take, but it is something like measuring cordwood with a micrometer. . ."


Parashooter,

I had heard that on Milsurp Collectors Forum about the .303.  I just wanted to be overly cautious.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CHUCKW
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep 15th, 2019
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #10 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 10:54pm
Print Post  
Picked up an NOS bolt body from Grandpa's gun parts to try and the bolt would not close on the GO or No-Go gauge.  So I ordered the field gauge.  Let's see what happens now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Local Boy
KCA Forum Member
KCA Official Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 462
Location: Mat-Su Valley, Alaska
Joined: Sep 24th, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #11 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 11:27pm
Print Post  
Hi Chuckw,

I believe the bolt should close on the "GO" gauge and not close on the "NO GO" gauge.

Hmmm...your post seems to indicate that the bolt will not close with either GO or NO GO gauge?
« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2019 at 6:46am by Local Boy »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #12 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:31pm
Print Post  
This may mean that Krag bolts are not interchangeable. With only two new bolts and one very little used bolt tested so far, I am thinking the "s##" on the bolts may be an indication of a plus value over a predetermined mean effective length. Watch the bolt trivia thread for further updates.

CHUCKW, If your NOS bolt has an "s" number on the back flat of the bolt what is it? Without forcing it how close does it come to closing?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 6330
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #13 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 3:00pm
Print Post  
I'm finding it hard to believe a NOS Krag Bolt will not close on a "Go" gauge.

Especially, with a Krag that the OP reported to have 'excessive' head-space with the bolt that came with it.

The "Go" gauge is typically used to check a re-barreling job, to make sure the Bolt will close on Factory Ammo.

I'm wondering if someone has misspoke or mistyped?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FredC
KCA Official Member
***
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 759
Location: Dewees, Texas
Joined: May 31st, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Headspace on 1898
Reply #14 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 6:52pm
Print Post  
BR,
Maybe the spare bolts were made to fit worn receivers and made purposely over length and the "s" number is an indication of how much?
Just guessing here but Krags were rebuilt several times in the very early years. More than we would expect today. Dusty conditions on horse back and infantry on foot would have exposed them to a lot of abrasive grit. They did have oilers but may not have had the means to clean the receiver recess as well as the bolt lug. Grit plus oil equals lapping compound.
Like you I am waiting for confirmation that the go did not go and possibly if the handle almost closed with light one finger push.

One more thing, I just looked at my SAAMI drawing for the 30/40 and head space is shown to be .064 to .071. So the correct no/go will be .071 and BR's .073 field gauge may very well be correct.  A manufacturer using .070 for field may be overly conservative. Maybe my SAAMI drawing is old and has been revised. I would post it here but the note at the bottom of the drawing says not to do that.

Just went back and looked for a revision number or copyright date on my SAMMI document and can find none. My copy was downloaded in 2013.
« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2019 at 11:49pm by FredC »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Send TopicPrint